The irritating question

[jaytraveller]

you have read a lot of questions like this... but i have to ask.

im a designer, for a newspaper, been writing pen and paper game systems for a few years now (ok, i dont have time anymore) and i have also modeled for a few games... which never were completed

well, now i want to start prototyping my ideas (so far i have just modeled for the head programmer ideas), play a little with them, see for myself if something is feasible before wasting someone else's time (as some people wasted mine, right?).
the problem is... im not a programmer, actually im quite frightened by any code beyond simple html, and to add to the confusion, there are too many "easy" engines... easy if you actually can write a couple of languages and are willing to learn their script... not to mention their documentation is vague in most cases, aimed at people in the know and with little patience for n00bs (which i understand)

i have already tried some engines and demos, starting from the basic editors on unreal (ut2k4, ut3) and far cry, ston3d shiva, reality factory, blender, beyond virtual gamecore, 3d gamemaker (what a BAD joke), dx studio, 3d game studio, c4 engine (and, i think, half a dozen more)... in fact all of them are sitting now in my hard drive, staring at me, mocking me...

i dont have the time to learn something as big as C++, i just have a too much work, but i guess a script language wont kill me, but i want to know its going to be useful in the short-middle term...

so, which engine? which script?

oh, by the way, im not aiming to make the next FF7, or a MMORPG, good grief!, worked for people like that too many times!, all i want is to test my ideas (in 3d) so i can show them to the programmers when the time comes, if ever comes at all... or to quit without wasting anyone's time.

[jaytraveller]

sorry for posting it in general dev.

[Sol_HSA]

Sounds like you don't need any of those high-end tools - get adobe flash instead, it's probably enough for prototyping some ideas.

[jaytraveller]

thanks for answering, Sol.
already considered flash, but not many of them can work in 2d, besides, learning actionsctipt would take the "learning" slot of time i have (just have one, for one script or languaje...)
now, the investment on flash would be enough to make a full flash game, thats a big plus

[Sol_HSA]

If the ideas don't work in 2d, they're probably too complex to begin with =)

[SamuraiCrow]

If you MUST try a 3d engine from the start, you could try the freebies like Ogre (http://www.ogre3d.org/) or Irrlicht (http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/). They are only graphics engines but you could get the general idea from them.

-edit-
Sorry, didn't read about the part about wanting to use a scripting language. Although a Python binding of either might not be too bad.

[jaytraveller]

Sol, its true that 3d is overrated, but there are many ideas that cant work otherwise...

SamuraiCrow: i started with irrlicht, but it requires a certain mastery of C++ to begin with. for me that means over a year and half... i know its the best language for games, but i want to know if there are some other ways to test my ideas before taking that big step (and expensive).

[genetransfer]

I haven't looked too deep into this but 3Drad seems to have an object based aproach to building a game, from what I've seen in the tutorial video's it seems to be point and click with some sort of scripting available, it's built on the 3Impact Engine so it might be worth a look. you seemed to have tried everything else so thought i'd mention it.

[jaytraveller]

Thank you, im downloading it!

[Mattias Gustavsson]

Sol, its true that 3d is overrated, but there are many ideas that cant work otherwise...

Interesting... like what? :confused:

[monjardin]

Luxinia (http://www.luxinia.de/) lets you write your whole game in Lua. It seems pretty clean too.

[jaytraveller]

Mattias, some ideas are about a shooter, to try to get the feeling of those shooters like raiden, but in 3d.
while it has been done before i have tought some features i want to test.
besides, many make simulators, but not campy shooter games, with little regard to real world physics. lets say i like campyness, but also the feeling of freedom 3d can give.


the second set of ideas can be built on top of a fps, to try a first person melee system, but one less repetitive than some i have played.
also want to play with the atmosphere of the game, how creepy can something be without the use of guts, blood or any other commonplace stuff, rather making creepy a regular existing place.

actually is a long list, but mostly i want to make things "feel" the way i want before asking someone to help me.
since for one or another set i will need to learn a languaje or script, i think i'll look for an engine capable of handling both sets.



monjardin: i have been stumbling into lua quite a few times while searching for an engine, i think even shiva uses it.
yeah, it looks like an option, but it still too soon to chose one.

[onyxthedog]

For proto-typing you can use Game Maker (www.yoyogames.com). It has lots of tutorials and has a book on the design interface. It can be as simple as drag and drop. It also has a built-in programming language that you can use if you so desire. GML (the programming language.) may be helpful if you want to eventually learn C++ or Java as it has the basic data structures and has very similar syntax. It is very simple to use and you can make FPS and online games with it. Although you may find after proto-typing you want more, so I advise learning a real programming language such as C++ as well.

[jaytraveller]

wow, i had always regarded gamemaker as a retarded flash... but not at all!
the 3d is not close to what i want, but i have the feeling i can translate some of my old pen and paper games to something playable.


""I advise learning a real programming language such as C++ as well""
my feelings exactly (leaving aside the question of the expenses, in time and money, which i dont have now, nor will have in the foreseeable future).


summarizing, every game engine i have tried, with a couple of exceptions, are (duh, of course!) aimed at programmers, but i think there is a niche for a product for people like me (uh... lets say... dense...) who have been for too long in a very different career path and want to get to try their ideas, if somewhat limited, in an interactive environment... something like a "game engine for dummies" :P

my conclusions, so far:
1.- i will use game maker, lets see if i can make something little to show here.
2.- im going to learn lua... though i'd rather learn chinese... its far more easier for my mindframe =/ (no, really!)
3.- im going to appoint myself as a resident dummy in case someone wants to make an engine (or whatever) for non-coders.

[fireside]

The problem is that you can do absolutely nothing original if you don't code. You can click together a mod, but if you show it to anyone they won't get more than a good laugh out of it. Aside from memory management, most languages are pretty much alike. The only easy engine I don't see on your list is Reality Factory, unless it's a first person shooter and you want to try fpscreator. But really, they will give you nothing original so you're just wasting your time. Also, your ideas about 3d are end product type things that don't have anything to do with originality or real game design. If you can't show them a different game, rather than a different look, they won't buy into it. 3d will increase your development time by about 3 times at least, possibly a lot more. You sensibly started with pen and paper, the next step is either 2d images or text. Mainly you want to learn object oriented programming so you can make these things act as entities. If you don't have a year to learn a language, then really, do yourself a favor and don't bother. You'll just keep purchasing engine after engine and nothing will happen.
If you feel you have to do 3d get 3d game studio, go very slowly through the tutorials and ask questions on the forum until you know the language. It really doesn't matter which engine you use but that ones pretty cheap and has a huge number of people to answer questions and a lot of tutorials.

[jaytraveller]

in my defense i must say that i was looking for an option, much in the same way coders look for art packs for their protoptypes...
think about it, for me its a huge (cant stress this enough) change of paradigms, its going to be long and expensive and was searching for something friendly to begin with, like i said, for dummies, while i learn a real languaje.

realityfactory: cant believe i forgot that one, yeah, is one of the few i havent checked off.
fps creator: since its vista only (the lastest version, thus the one that its likely to get more updates in the long run) i ruled it out.

""You sensibly started with pen and paper, the next step is either 2d images or text. ""
i do comics, or, rather, have done, professionally, plus quite a few character designs. what i wanted is the bridge between media without bothering/hiring a coder (until i have actually something).

[fireside]

Gamemaker might be a good choice, I haven't used it. There's nothing wrong with engines that save you some time with getting images up, etc, and it looks like it uses a grid system which is useful for game design.

[onyxthedog]

It really helps when you are first learning, because it uses the same terminology, it has a language that you can learn, it forces you to learn how to work with variables, and you can be as creative as you want about. Plus, if you want the registered version it is only $20, so even a child could afford it if that is what they truely wanted. But unregistered, or lite as they call it, is also very powerful.

[Riva]

jaytraveller, I think I know what you are trying to accoplish and I might have some ideas for you.

I myself am mostly game artist and leveldesigner with only little programming skills and I am working on my small 3d game project at the moment, to test some design concept I have.

Got 2 things for you:

1st:
I don't know most of 3d engines that been noted here and can't say which is good or bad. Overaly I think most of free or cheap ("indie") engines have some flaws, are badly documented, semi-functional or some other way unusable but thats not my point.
My advice is - if you really only want to test some of your gameplay or visual ideas, don't look for your own game engine at all. Instead MOD some existing game. Use its commercial well working engine and leveldesign tools.
I can recommend few obvious choices like Source engine (HL2), CryEngine1 (Farcry) etc., but theres a lot of choices and Im sure you can choose for yourself.
I have used HL1 and Source engine successfuly myself for some design "tests" in the past.

2nd:
From what I understood, you are looking for design tool, but at the same time saying you don't want to learn any (real) scripting language.
Well, bad news for you - every game engine uses scripting language and if you woun't learn it you simply can't create anything functional in any engine or editor.
Also afaik most scriting languages (in 3d game engines) use syntax close C or C++, so theres not really much difference.

And the point is (as was already sayd here): if you can't find time learn to work with some level crafting tools and learn some scripting language, you simply can't do what you want.

[jaytraveller]

well, its been a few days and i have been using lite C, or rather learning the workshop.
i can say its not hell, but is hard, very. its a whole different... universe, and i reckon i will be months before things start making sense.
but what the heck! like im going to shy at this! you all be hearing (uh, reading) about me... its just going to take a while, even before i start to make questions. :P

and thanks everyone for the advice!

[galent]

Depending on your sensitivity to cost, and initial platform, you may want to look at Unity (unity3d.com). The engine accepts three different scripting languages, javascript is the main one and very easy to learn when compared to other programming languages. The Unity tool is easy to learn, the tutorials and documentation are excellent, and the Unity people/community is very responsive and supportive in my experience. The catch(es) are number one - platform, the Unity tool only works on Mac (I like the tool so much I bought one for the occasion), and two cost, the indie license is relatively low cost ($200) but the Pro license (which gives you windows build) is a little pricey ($1499).

Hope this helps.