Marketing Game OS

[losethos]

I've written a 64-bit PC operating system just for game programming -- http://www.losethos.com . I'm trying to figure-out how to market it. Maybe, you could check it out and give me feedback on good and bad aspects of it. It has a brand-new graphics API, not accelerated. I could use feedback on the API... acceleration is not really an option.

You can download the ISO, boot to it and install or just sample it.

One idea is all I need to do is make a killer application. That sounded easy, but it's harder than it seems! I have problems just coming-up with original game ideas. I thought of a eagle flight simulator where you dive for fish. That's about as original as I can do.

This is not such a good time for venture capital. I'm not even sure I would lend me money.

LoseThos is for fun with programming. It is fun. Only problem is can't really do much serious with it. It's a blast if you want to play with MultiCore or programming things which are normally off-limits.... Want to change page tables... go ahead!

[Jare]

That's some crazy stuff! I don't think many people will want to use it but it is an impressive effort.

[Sol_HSA]

I can see that there would be a market for this 20 years ago, but right now, I really don't. What does this system give that a "normal" windows environment doesn't? More performance? Most (if not all) beginner-made games don't need more performance from system-level.. and most (if not all) professional games rely more on high-performance graphics hardware than cpu.

That said, looks like a cool project.

[losethos]

It offers graphics in source code. That's kinda cool.

It offers such things as global system variables for immediately getting mouse x,y and buttons. You can do it with messages, too.

Hello world takes one line of code.

You can put graphics on the screen in two lines of code.

That's pretty-much it -- simpler for beginners.

For advanced users, you have access to everything in the operating system. The graphics API is probably not as good as others for advanced users.


The environment itself is really cool -- can script things in C/C++.

I forgot -- you can do lots of things like change text or backgorund color, blink, etc... easily and send graphics to the command line... or links.

[ville-v]

It would work if you had a machine for it. Professional PC programmers are not very likely to move onto new platform and non-professionals are not going to produce a game which would attract large amount of people.

[losethos]

It's for 64-bit IBM PC compatible computers. 64_x86.

[losethos]

It's not for professionals. Most game programmers are not professional, right? You're probably an example. A professional works with graphic artists and voice actors. Wannabe's have to do it themselves. I discovered high resolution wasn't what I was missing -- my art sucks no matter what. If you accept that you're not a professional, you can have lots of fun with LoseThos. It is a bitter pill though.

[alphadog]

I've written a 64-bit PC operating system just for game programming -- http://www.losethos.com . I'm trying to figure-out how to market it.

The "secret sauce" to Microsoft's success as a game platform, apart from the whole monopoly/world domination/death star thing, is that they really put a major effort in supporting developers. Look at DirectX or XNA: decently-documented API, conferences out the wazoo, a ton of online materials, supported communities. Success is not just about a good technical product, it's about making it super-approachable to developers. Do you have a start on this? I went to your site. Where's your full documentation? White papers?

Your second major problem is that a game developer cannot "force" a user to change their OS just for a game. So, the developer's market is going to be limited to a) techies who wouldn't mind booting into your OS, or b) developers willing to take a chance and put OS + game on a bootable media.

Your third problem is, if I make a game, and it sells well, how's your support network? You are a one-man show, are you not? How long will an email wait in your inbox if my game on your platofrm

I'm not telling you that it is impossible that you can't get your product into lots of hands. Heck, Linux had to start somewhere like you are, and look how long it took to get to a point where it is considered widespread.

It's just a very, very hard row to hoe.

[ville-v]

It's not for professionals. Most game programmers are not professional, right? You're probably an example. A professional works with graphic artists and voice actors. Wannabe's have to do it themselves. I discovered high resolution wasn't what I was missing -- my art sucks no matter what. If you accept that you're not a professional, you can have lots of fun with LoseThos. It is a bitter pill though.
You are right in what you say, but even non-professionals are usually not making games for the sake of making games, they want someone to play the game.

Unless the game is a quality one, nobody is going to change his operating system just for sake of playing it. People who make good games are directing them to platform that has lots of users or potential.

[alphadog]

It's not for professionals. Most game programmers are not professional, right? You're probably an example. A professional works with graphic artists and voice actors. Wannabe's have to do it themselves. I discovered high resolution wasn't what I was missing -- my art sucks no matter what. If you accept that you're not a professional, you can have lots of fun with LoseThos. It is a bitter pill though.

Yeah, but most "wannabes" want to be professionals, and therefore orient their skill development such that they can work in a professional environment in the future. The category of amateur game developers in it for themselves and themselves only is very small. (All IMO, of course...:))

[starstutter]

It offers such things as global system variables for immediately getting mouse x,y and buttons. You can do it with messages, too.

Hello world takes one line of code.

You can put graphics on the screen in two lines of code.

That's pretty-much it -- simpler for beginners.

For advanced users, you have access to everything in the operating system. The graphics API is probably not as good as others for advanced users.


The environment itself is really cool -- can script things in C/C++.

I forgot -- you can do lots of things like change text or backgorund color, blink, etc... easily and send graphics to the command line... or links.

Man, I have to say, this would have been a REALLY good idea 15-20 years ago, but most everything you mention in there is currently in readily available code libraries for windows and they take only a few seconds to set up without change in OS. Don't get me wrong, writing this operating system is a great feat, but I just think you could have put your talent to something a lot more practical.

As an idea, maybe somehow you could make an export system that would allow the games to be played on windows.

[Sol_HSA]

It offers graphics in source code. That's kinda cool.

It offers such things as global system variables for immediately getting mouse x,y and buttons. You can do it with messages, too.

Hello world takes one line of code.

You can put graphics on the screen in two lines of code.

That's pretty-much it -- simpler for beginners.

For advanced users, you have access to everything in the operating system. The graphics API is probably not as good as others for advanced users.


The environment itself is really cool -- can script things in C/C++.

I forgot -- you can do lots of things like change text or backgorund color, blink, etc... easily and send graphics to the command line... or links.
Ok. Let me rephrase. What does it offer that requires a separate operating system which you couldn't do in windows, by writing a custom language or C library to link against?

Point being, it doesn't matter HOW easy it is for a new user if you have to go through the trouble of changing your OS to get there..

[alphadog]

It offers such things as global system variables for immediately getting mouse x,y and buttons. You can do it with messages, too.

BTW, while I was reading Sol's post, I had a thought. Are these "global system variables" read-only? Can I design software on LoseThos that comes in and smacks those global variables around, possibly affecting some other running code too?

Another "BTW": putting "lose" in an OS' name is a bad marketing move, especially for game developers... ;)

And lastly, FWIW, putting statements like "You're an intellectual wannabe who's pathetic" in your limited docs won't get you any congeniality awards...

[SamuraiCrow]

I think the idea is that it can do stuff without hogging tons of system resources. That said, as a long-time Amiga enthusiast I personally would use AROS (http://aros.sourceforge.net/) rather than LoseThos since it supports more hardware and has plans to add hardware 3d acceleration someday (not to mention that it multitasks and does other cool stuff that the Amiga-style APIs of 15 years ago used to support).

[losethos]

LoseThos multitasks fine. Doesn't share the drive very nicely, so one task will use it, locking-out the others at times. I was just mocking the silly things people pride themselves on -- like having lots of windows open at once.

It is expecting a lot for people to install a new operating system. Oh, well. It's really cool if you make the effort. You'll find many things you wish your main operating system had. Having the compiler built-into the operating system means you can put C/C++ commands on icons and work with compiled expressions all over the place. That's really cool.

At least test drive it.

You can distribute your games on a CD with the operating system so people don't have to install it, except your game can't very easily save to hard drive in this case.

[losethos]

The "secret sauce" to Microsoft's success as a game platform, apart from the whole monopoly/world domination/death star thing, is that they really put a major effort in supporting developers. Look at DirectX or XNA: decently-documented API, conferences out the wazoo, a ton of online materials, supported communities. Success is not just about a good technical product, it's about making it super-approachable to developers. Do you have a start on this? I went to your site. Where's your full documentation? White papers?


Yeah, I need to work on that. I have lots of sample code and a fair amount of documentation on the distribution. What's better -- sample code or documentation... probably both? You think putting the documentation on my web site would help? The operating system doesn't have networking, so it would be inconvenient putting it on the internet. I guess it's common to ship it with books. Maybe I can sell books, but I can hardly give it away -- no takers. Maybe, I could make a book you could print-out. Groan ;-)

As to the other comment on "lose" in the name... it's a play on win-does and lose-those. It's supposed to be like the platoon movie seen where Elias says to "shit can" a bunch of standard issue equipment. It was probably unwise to pick that name. I've thought about changing it. Got any better names? No joke, now ;-)

[Sol_HSA]

Yeah, I need to work on that. I have lots of sample code and a fair amount of documentation on the distribution. What's better -- sample code or documentation... probably both? You think putting the documentation on my web site would help? The operating system doesn't have networking, so it would be inconvenient putting it on the internet. I guess it's common to ship it with books. Maybe I can sell books, but I can hardly give it away -- no takers. Maybe, I could make a book you could print-out. Groan ;-)
What might help is writing a book about how to build an OS, and use yours as an example people can poke at.

[alphadog]

What's better -- sample code or documentation... probably both?

Both. And more. Really you want to iterate through various types of docs.

First, try to get out a document that describes the raison-d'etre of your OS. Is it supposed to be a new general-purpose OS, or does it fit a niche?

Some tuts would be needed. Don't bother over-thinking it, just knock-off the same tuts on a similar website, but reconfigured for your OS.

Furthermore, you have to see yourself as the nucleus of a vibrant community. You need a website with a news section that's updated semi-regularly, even if briefly. You need a blog. Wiki, forum, mailing list. How about a Google or Yahoo Group?

You think putting the documentation on my web site would help?[QUOTE]

Yes. Some people want to read before they download.

[QUOTE=losethos]The operating system doesn't have networking, so it would be inconvenient putting it on the internet. I guess it's common to ship it with books. Maybe I can sell books, but I can hardly give it away -- no takers. Maybe, I could make a book you could print-out. Groan ;-)

I often agree with Sol_HSA, but skip the book for now. Put whatever non-dev time you have into key docs, then creating an environment for other to contribute. if I download your OS, do something cool with it, where do I go to brag? If and when you accumulate a community, then a book may be a good thing.

As to the other comment on "lose" in the name... it's a play on win-does and lose-those. It's supposed to be like the platoon movie seen where Elias says to "shit can" a bunch of standard issue equipment. It was probably unwise to pick that name. I've thought about changing it. Got any better names? No joke, now ;-)

Too obscure. If you want this to get any kind of following, give it an approachable name. I'd play with words based on its purpose.

[Sol_HSA]

Too obscure. If you want this to get any kind of following, give it an approachable name. I'd play with words based on its purpose.
Actually, I read it as "lose the os", which would make sense =)

[losethos]

Actually, I read it as "lose the os", which would make sense =)


I get that a lot. Some people think it's a browser or something because of it's small size. There's incredible confusion. Some think I changed the BIOS because it boots in 2 seconds. I've heard all kinds of crazy conjectures. It's just an ordinary nonnetworked operating system. Kids these days!

As for the other guy's comments, I have a tour thing you can take to learn about it and tons of sample code demo's. I thought about making a tutorial out of them, except organizing them sequentially baffles me. I try to picture myself and how I like to learn. I never take tours, but might if I were completely lost. When I'm learning, I look at documentation and examples and just dive-in.

A vibrant community would be the goal, but I'm losing hope. I get hits on my website when I post a prominant link and a steady trickle of downloads, but it dies-off without prominant links -- doesn't seem to want to go viral or reach a critical mass. I've had hundreds of downloads but almost no feedback emails. A large number might take one look and move-on, i don't know.

I have demo videos and screen shots and stuff on my site. I have a source forge listing which had a forum, but nobody looked. Here's the website: http://www.losethos.com.

[vrnunes]

That is what people are telling you, this project is technically very very nice, but of no (obvious) practical use.

Like, I think it could render you a job in the next Windows/Linux/MacOS/SunOS/Other team, but I don't think you'll be getting any money/developers directly from it.

I suggest you to prepare and send a nice demo with something simple but cool that boots within 5 seconds to Apple, Microsoft, Sun and other OS companies, and I'm not kidding.

EDIT: Well, of course we all may be wrong on that, for sure. :-)

[ville-v]

Having the compiler built-into the operating system means you can put C/C++ commands on icons and work with compiled expressions all over the place. That's really cool.
A simple icon that deletes all files on the hard drive once you click it, and not even need to have some program or script installed, only the icon file. Virus writers' dream.

[losethos]

Clearly you guys are incredilous that I wrote an operating system and compiler. I'm flattered. I'm a god, aparently.

[Reedbeta]

losethos, you need to lose the personal attacks (which I've deleted). If you're unhappy with the criticism of your work, respond to it on its own terms, not by insulting the people who posted it.

[losethos]

A simple icon that deletes all files on the hard drive once you click it, and not even need to have some program or script installed, only the icon file. Virus writers' dream.


This guy is implying my operating system is malware. Don't give me bullshit about him not saying it literally -- that's his intent. Linux fanboi or something.

[kusma]

This guy is implying my operating system is malware. Don't give me bullshit about him not saying it literally -- that's his intent. Linux fanboi or something.
No, he just suggested that the c-code-anywhere feature could be used by malware. At least that's how I understood it.

[alphadog]

No, he just suggested that the c-code-anywhere feature could be used by malware. At least that's how I understood it.

Agreed. I have not poured over the LoseThos source, so I can't speak to its quality, but some of the bullet points thrown about do raise concerns with me. Of course, if one uses it to create a self-contained game-with-OS, then that may be moot.

Clearly you guys are incredilous that I wrote an operating system and compiler. I'm flattered. I'm a god, aparently.

Again, actually, and speaking for myself only, I am not incredulous. It's not so hard to write a (micro)kernel.

The real challenge is building the ecosystem that has to come up around it. Daemons, services, toolchain, etc... Let's face it, Linux would have got nowhere beyond a Finnish wet dream without the not-as-memorable GNU environment.

In fact, you may want to look at the history of Linux (the kernel) and GNU's intended kernel, Hurd.

A vibrant community would be the goal, but I'm losing hope.

Don't. Almost any large project, be it a "real" game, a business startup, or even a real relationship, any other project of that scope, seems to take 4-6 years to gain self-sustaining traction. (Except if you spot a real, untapped and strong demend. Even then it takes time to build the snowball into a boulder. And, "weird" OSes are somewhat plentiful, really.) To me, that's a magic number. If you can hold that long, you have good chances. If you can't, may as well fold now.

How long since you release it? The Linux kernel was released in 1991. Fast-forward SEVENTEEN years, and it's still MS' shadow on the desktop and has a questionable environment for gaming.

Also, if you put yourself out there, there will be those who want to tear you down for various reasons. I don't think it has quite happened here as bad as it can get, but it will happen. Without a "off a duck's back" laid-back attitude, you will kill your project with your own behavior...

[ville-v]

The real challenge is building the ecosystem that has to come up around it. Daemons, services, toolchain, etc... Let's face it, Linux would have got nowhere beyond a Finnish wet dream without the not-as-memorable GNU environment.

In fact, you may want to look at the history of Linux (the kernel) and GNU's intended kernel, Hurd.

How long since you release it? The Linux kernel was released in 1991. Fast-forward SEVENTEEN years, and it's still MS' shadow on the desktop and has a questionable environment for gaming.
One of the reasons Linux gained users was it's full Unix compability. The next alternative OS which will break through will be supporting Windows binaries natively, maybe Linux binaries too. That means people do not have to leave their favourite programs and games while switching the OS.

[kusma]

maybe Linux binaries too.
I doubt it - even linux itself doesn't have proper binary compatibility, only source-level compatibility. New versions of CRTs or new ABIs happens every 2-3 years it seems, and tends to break binary compatibility.