Questions about creating games

[Cody1895]

First of all a little about me. Im a avid gamer and im 20 years old. I got lots of idea's for games BUT.. I don't want to be a progammer. You might think then what the hell are you doing posting in this forum then!? I'll tell ya.

I've been working on my game idea's for over a year now and I want to start a small company of some sorts to create games. As I said I don't want to be a programmer but more of the buisness side or something like a creative director. Tell people how I want my idea's molded and how everything should be etc.. Also I don't want to create a nex-gen amazing MMO with 10 million+ dropped into my games either. I want to do small 2D games to start out with and then move on up as I go. So ya that's a little about me and now for the questions.

1)So im going to be doing 2D games mostly and im assuming they are cheaper from what I've read online. Does anyone know how much cheaper the cost is from 2D to 3D usually?

2)Has anyone here started up a company with hiring people to create the games you've invisioned? Starting a small buisness and how it played out. If so how did it go and what can you reccomend.

3)Does anyone have any good information on creating games like MapleStory, Gunbound etc.. That have been very successful with the micro-transaction model. How they came to be etc.. How much money to create these types of games. I've wiki'ed them etc.. but just looking for some additional info on them.

4)For a future game I have as a larger project if my smaller games go well first is going to be a game similar to Pox Nora. http://www.poxnora.com/index.do
Would be a card game similar as graphics and how it's setup online etc.. Anyone have a idea how much is would cost to make a game like that and how many people would be needed. Any information on this would be helpful.

Any information that you can add that you think might answer or help me out on my situation with being a creative director or starting a small video game buisness with be greatly appreiated.

I don't expect you to have all the answers or any at all, or even answer them, im just looking for a little help if I can get it.

Thanks, Cody S.

[starstutter]

Don't have time for a long response but I will give you one crucial, undeniable piece of advice:
You have to create a game on your own before *anyone* will work for you.

There are probably approx. 700 posts a day (or more) on the internet that announce an upcoming game dev company or a new groundbreaking game that will with %100 certainty be released. People (especially any semi-decent programmer) know this all too well and will only look for leaders who have proven they can be dedicated. How do you do that? You make a completle, released title on your own.

It doesn't have to profit well, you don't even have to sell it. All you need to do is give a URL linking to your game and I gaurentee your chances of successfully getting qualified people together increase hundereds of times fold (which don't kid yourself, is still in the %10 to %15 range).

I'm not trying to be a downer, but I am saying to please not invest too much money in this. However much time you want to put in, that's fine, but don't spend money on a future buisness that has an overwhelming chance of failing... unless you create a game yourself that is.

[alphadog]

To add to Startstutter, a "creative director" is at a minimum a technically capable individual, if not a superbly-capable individual, since it is his or her role to offer solutions when the team is floundering. Success and failure falls (theoretically) on the creative director's, when there is one, and it is up to him/her to roll-up and fix the problem when the team cannot.

Furthermore, the unfortunate truth is that only on god-awfully large teams do you need a "creative director". On small teams, being resource-strapped, you are expected to wear multiple hats. One of the most common hats is "programmer".

Additionally, most programmers who would come into your amateur project would likely be passionate too. They have their own ideas too. Why would they spend time on your ideas rather than theirs? What are you offering to feed their passion?

More specifically to your post, your four questions are too broad to answer in any way that would be valuable to you. For example, games can vary wildly in costs both in 2D and 3D, and it all falls down to the quality and quantity of the content. Or, starting a business is a topic for a whole book, not a forum reply. People make careers out of advice in the field.

My advice is either a) write your own games or, b) get into the industry at the bottom, grow and make connections , and then strike out on your own with anyone who wants to tag along.

[Cody1895]

Alright so even if I made a couple flash games by myself or are we talking full large games?

Also every buisness that starts has a large chance of failure. Most buisness's fail in the first year or less. Im aware of the risk involved. As I said I don't wanna empty my bank account and hope for the best just yet. Start really small with some of my flash game idea's and work my way up from there.

I took C++ in highschool and I was "decent" at it. I DL'ed game maker but it confused me in a way but then again I didn't spend too much time on it either. Would you recommed screwing around with gamemaker as I have little programming experience and make some games from there? Im also a terrible artist XD.

Thank you for the tip on having games under my belt before I start hiring though it does make sense, but if im paying them to make the games why would it matter to them? Only reason I can think of is they don't want bad rep for not completeing a game or shipping a bad one from inexperience.

I've heard that there are tonnes of programmers with no jobs as there just isn't enough to go around. All these highschool kids say I wanna program video games, go to school for 4-5 years to find out they need to ship a title before they can even sneeze in the direction of a company. So isn't there a crap tonne of programmers just waiting to be hired?

[Cody1895]

To add to Startstutter, a "creative director" is at a minimum a technically capable individual, if not a superbly-capable individual, since it is his or her role to offer solutions when the team is floundering. Success and failure falls (theoretically) on the creative director's, when there is one, and it is up to him/her to roll-up and fix the problem when the team cannot.

Furthermore, the unfortunate truth is that only on god-awfully large teams do you need a "creative director". On small teams, being resource-strapped, you are expected to wear multiple hats. One of the most common hats is "programmer".


Yes I said "like a creative director". Meaning how they mold the game and tell people what should be changed etc.. Aka the boss of my company. Having the games made to my specifications. Im starting very small if I start at all.


Additionally, most programmers who would come into your amateur project would likely be passionate too. They have their own ideas too. Why would they spend time on your ideas rather than theirs? What are you offering to feed their passion?


Why would they do what I say on my project and not create their own idea's.. $$$. You don't hire someone and say "Okay now I want you to create game X! Here's what I want. It's cool if you make an entirely different game of your own though that would be cool too!" No.. That's how people get fired.


More specifically to your post, your four questions are too broad to answer in any way that would be valuable to you. For example, games can vary wildly in costs both in 2D and 3D, and it all falls down to the quality and quantity of the content. Or, starting a business is a topic for a whole book, not a forum reply. People make careers out of advice in the field.


Im aware they range from nothing to million bucks for a game. Im starting out with small little nothing games as I said and from that standpoint I was just looking for some insight on people who have made both and what the cost was between them.

Only my first two question are broad and open i'll give you that but there's not an easy direct way else to pose those questions. My last two are right to the point though. I want additional info on these types of games if there is any to be given.

To anyone else I know im the 1,000,000+ 20 year old saying they want to get starting in the video game world but I've done quite a lot of research on the subject. Im not looking for "You don't want to do this because your going to fail" If that's whats going to happen then so be it. I fail will and learn from my mistakes. Im going to start in flash games and work my way up or down from there.

[augur]

Hi Cody!
I thought I should drop a few points about starting up your own company focusing on the managerial part of the work.
First of all you're 20, you don't have to rush to anything let alone starting an enterprise of your own. You have the luxury to plan ahead for your vision of becoming an entrepreneur. You're aiming for an industry that is heavily dependent on technical expertise and experience so you might start off with that. Getting relevant education topped up with an MBA is great but if you want to go the other way accumulating around 10.000 hours worth of experience in this specific industry will also help. However, never underestimate the worth of reading academic material (books, papers etc.. concerning start-ups (I feel this is indispensable for you).

Another point I felt you should consider is the availability of human resources that you may reach. In the gaming industry “the fight for talent” is brutal. Bigger companies hire top talent every year leaving start-ups little to work with (although I must admit stock options and profit sharing plans have changed this situation dramatically) so therefore you’re going to have to opt for less. The point here is that you should come to understand that paying people to do the actual work won’t get you anywhere, people want career plans, other perks that come with the job and all of these mean you’re going to need a lot more than paychecks the attract and keep talent.

Although it has been mentioned before, my advice is that you should drop all dreams involving stereotypes such as becoming a creative director. These terms (CD, CEO, CFO etc) are highly idealized and overrated especially for a start-up. You should be ready for the “blood, sweat and tears” of an uphill battle when you’re planning to start a business.

One last point of advice, wherever you share your idea of becoming an entrepreneur, try to get people to talk about the negative aspects of your planned business as you are more than likely to have an optimistic opinion about your plans. As far as I’ve read this forum is a great place to learn about common mistakes about developing games.

Hope this was helpful.

[starstutter]

Alright so even if I made a couple flash games by myself or are we talking full large games?

Well that's definitley a good start. But developing games in flash is still a ways away from beginning from scratch in c++ (especially the graphics aspect). Could we get a link to these games? Or are they on the web? One thing I should have mentioned before (and you probably know because its common sense) is that the game needs to be good and polished. If there's any flaws that you know of when presenting, say so, because otherwise people assume you don't know the difference between qualities (and belive me, even slight flaws are always noticed).


Start really small with some of my flash game idea's and work my way up from there.

One thing you may want to consider profit-wise is site advertising. Xgen studios is a great example of this:
http://www.xgenstudios.com/
But... please do yourself and everyone else a favor though... don't allow so many ads that they actually take more resources than running the game does. I have phenominal framerate issues on their games sometimes because there's 5 flash ads running at once.


Would you recommed screwing around with gamemaker as I have little programming experience and make some games from there?

Can't suppose it would hurt. And yes btw, one thing you actually should have the first time around is an artist. I think we all suck at art here =/


Thank you for the tip on having games under my belt before I start hiring though it does make sense, but if im paying them to make the games why would it matter to them? Only reason I can think of is they don't want bad rep for not completeing a game or shipping a bad one from inexperience.

Well not only that, but we also run back to the money investment thing and worst of all, schedule planning. You just don't know how long the game will take to develop. I have a general rule of thumb for estimating how long making a good game will take:
Take a piece of paper and a pencil.
Take your best serious guess on how long the game will take to develop.
Double it.
Now tripple it.
Now crumple up the paper and eat it because that guess is still horridly wrong

One thing I can gaurentee you though, is however long you estimate for the first few projects, it won't be long enough, period. Its just impossible for a begginer to comprehend how long it takes to do even the simplest of things.


I've heard that there are tonnes of programmers with no jobs as there just isn't enough to go around. All these highschool kids say I wanna program video games, go to school for 4-5 years to find out they need to ship a title before they can even sneeze in the direction of a company. So isn't there a crap tonne of programmers just waiting to be hired?
Don't take it as gospel, but I think you're making this sound a bit worse than it is. A few things you may be overlooking:

- People that only go to "Game Development Colleges" and then learn that their degrees are far less valuble than a general 4 year degree in comp science. I will say that those schools are great for learning how to tighten up those graphics.

- Most people just aren't that serious about it. "I want to make a game" does not signify that someone wants to go into game development at all.

- A lot of them just aren't compotent programmers. Its a difficult field, don't kid yourself, and a lot of peoples brains just aren't wired that way to be efficient at it (like us sucking at art). Many you're thinking of just may not have what it takes to get into the indusrty

Besides, there's relativley few jobs that are about programming games in the wide field that is programming itself. If a person can't get a job as a game programmer, more than likley he'll get some kind of programming job in some other profession.

[Cody1895]

Hi Cody!
I thought I should drop a few points about starting up your own company focusing on the managerial part of the work.
First of all you're 20, you don't have to rush to anything let alone starting an enterprise of your own. You have the luxury to plan ahead for your vision of becoming an entrepreneur. You're aiming for an industry that is heavily dependent on technical expertise and experience so you might start off with that. Getting relevant education topped up with an MBA is great but if you want to go the other way accumulating around 10.000 hours worth of experience in this specific industry will also help. However, never underestimate the worth of reading academic material (books, papers etc.. concerning start-ups (I feel this is indispensable for you).


Ya im planning on taking a entrepreneur's course soon and I've been reading (a lot) of gamasutra etc.. articles and entrepreneur/small buisness things on the web to get some good tips on it.


Another point I felt you should consider is the availability of human resources that you may reach. In the gaming industry “the fight for talent” is brutal. Bigger companies hire top talent every year leaving start-ups little to work with (although I must admit stock options and profit sharing plans have changed this situation dramatically) so therefore you’re going to have to opt for less. The point here is that you should come to understand that paying people to do the actual work won’t get you anywhere, people want career plans, other perks that come with the job and all of these mean you’re going to need a lot more than paychecks the attract and keep talent.


I see what you mean if I were hiring a full staff for a larger game. Im going to be doing more flash oriented games to start off with then if all goes well with that move onto my bigger project. Anywho what im saying is couldn't I pay people 200-1000+ to make my flash games for me and then do all the advertising, putting it on mochi ads, kongrete etc..? Then when (or if) I get a good income start my own little company for making more of these games?


Although it has been mentioned before, my advice is that you should drop all dreams involving stereotypes such as becoming a creative director. These terms (CD, CEO, CFO etc) are highly idealized and overrated especially for a start-up. You should be ready for the “blood, sweat and tears” of an uphill battle when you’re planning to start a business.


Again I didn't mean it so literally as being the "Top gun at EA" I ment it as having the games I want created in my vision so I may sell them etc.. I really really enjoy thinking of the theory of how its going to work, the mechanics of things, creating classes/characters, the boss fights/enemies, storyline and, the balance of the game. If I could get job balancing games I would because I think I would be damn good at it haha. If there is such a job or anyone got any info on this please tell me :D

Also Im well aware im gonna be eat kraft dinner out of a cardboard box some point in my life if I decide to do this. I know its gonna be hard to accomplish but that's what every buisness is about. Taking a risk and hoping it succeeds.


One last point of advice, wherever you share your idea of becoming an entrepreneur, try to get people to talk about the negative aspects of your planned business as you are more than likely to have an optimistic opinion about your plans. As far as I’ve read this forum is a great place to learn about common mistakes about developing games.

Hope this was helpful.

Ya I came here for advise and so far it's going pretty good. Thanks for the reply btw.

[Cody1895]

Well that's definitley a good start. But developing games in flash is still a ways away from beginning from scratch in c++ (especially the graphics aspect). Could we get a link to these games? Or are they on the web? One thing I should have mentioned before (and you probably know because its common sense) is that the game needs to be good and polished. If there's any flaws that you know of when presenting, say so, because otherwise people assume you don't know the difference between qualities (and belive me, even slight flaws are always noticed).


I do want to do more flash oriented games though. Only later if I succeed in doing that would I attempt to make my larger project. I didn't make that very clear sorry XD was like 4:30am when I posted this lol.


One thing you may want to consider profit-wise is site advertising. Xgen studios is a great example of this:
http://www.xgenstudios.com/
But... please do yourself and everyone else a favor though... don't allow so many ads that they actually take more resources than running the game does. I have phenominal framerate issues on their games sometimes because there's 5 flash ads running at once.


Ya im not gonna be a banner whore if I make a website to showcase my games. Im not a jerk wad :P I want people to play my games and enjoy them.


Can't suppose it would hurt. And yes btw, one thing you actually should have the first time around is an artist. I think we all suck at art here =/


Why oh why couldn't I have a friend good at art :(


Well not only that, but we also run back to the money investment thing and worst of all, schedule planning. You just don't know how long the game will take to develop. I have a general rule of thumb for estimating how long making a good game will take:
Take a piece of paper and a pencil.
Take your best serious guess on how long the game will take to develop.
Double it.
Now tripple it.
Now crumple up the paper and eat it because that guess is still horridly wrong

One thing I can gaurentee you though, is however long you estimate for the first few projects, it won't be long enough, period. Its just impossible for a begginer to comprehend how long it takes to do even the simplest of things.


Ya I've read that many times that it's gonna take a lot longer then you think. I worked construction for 2 years now and that's alway the case. Something comes up or the weather makes it so you can't do your job. Annoying as it may be im used to it already and expecting it in any job I take.


Don't take it as gospel, but I think you're making this sound a bit worse than it is. A few things you may be overlooking:

- People that only go to "Game Development Colleges" and then learn that their degrees are far less valuble than a general 4 year degree in comp science. I will say that those schools are great for learning how to tighten up those graphics.

- Most people just aren't that serious about it. "I want to make a game" does not signify that someone wants to go into game development at all.

- A lot of them just aren't compotent programmers. Its a difficult field, don't kid yourself, and a lot of peoples brains just aren't wired that way to be efficient at it (like us sucking at art). Many you're thinking of just may not have what it takes to get into the indusrty

Besides, there's relativley few jobs that are about programming games in the wide field that is programming itself. If a person can't get a job as a game programmer, more than likley he'll get some kind of programming job in some other profession.

Well that clears that up then :p Ya im as I said im not that into programming but I really really enjoy thinking of the theory of how its going to work, the mechanics of things, creating classes/characters, the boss fights/enemies, storyline and, the balance of the game. If I could get job balancing games I would because I think I would be damn good at it haha. If there is such a job or anyone got any info on this please tell me

from my reply above is what I enjoy doing. Got like two of those fivestar note books full of game idea's etc.. So I thought well If I make a company and pay people to make them for me then that'd be awesome! lol. If you got any info though that could shed some light on that as well that would be very helpful :D Thanks for the reply btw.

[starstutter]

from my reply above is what I enjoy doing. Got like two of those fivestar note books full of game idea's etc.. So I thought well If I make a company and pay people to make them for me then that'd be awesome! lol.

Well unfortunatley I've never heard of a job position where you "balance games". From the way I understand it, games from large companies are initially designed by long-time employees that worked their way up into some kind of design position (which is really a meaningless title in most cases). Balance however cannot be achived by paper design. That has to happen after the game has already been made and is playable.

According to Valve, the process of balancing left 4 dead took a total of 3 years of playing, developing, tweeking and anaylizing the actual "finished" game (implying that the actual game L4D was essentially playable in mid 2005). No single person did this, it was the entire team. Plus, even after all that, the game is still chopped full of OMGWTFBBQ moments.

As for concept design, there's not some guy sitting in an office with an enourmous brain who thinks up ingenious concepts. Concepts can come from anyone on the team because most good concepts are spawned at random, not a product of sitting there trying to think of one for the next deadline. Although sometimes I think that's what EA does :)

Overall though, I would say to you, do not seek a job as a "designer". Quoting the guys at Epic for a second:
"What's our #1 fear? That you want to be a "designer""

And as already mentioned above, in the indie world, the job title "designer" doesn't even exist because people are so squeezed on resources (which is why I keep putting it in quote marks).

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can persue your goal of designing an awesome game, that's fine, but please don't waste your time trying to do that exclusivley. Not only that, but you really don't know if your ideas are good or not. They may sound good to you and your friends (and possibly everyone you tell it to) but unfortunatley you can't know how it will actually play out in a tangible game.

EDIT: I just remembered something actually *smacks forehead*. Why don't you prototype? Basicly, you take your gameplay concepts (which are the most crucial part) and make them into a playable form with a mod (Source or Unreal engine will do). That way at least you can know if you're on the right track or not, provided you can pull it off that is. From what I hear, you would also have a better chance of putting together a team of modders because "hardcore programmers" are rare.

[Cody1895]

Well unfortunatley I've never heard of a job position where you "balance games". From the way I understand it, games from large companies are initially designed by long-time employees that worked their way up into some kind of design position (which is really a meaningless title in most cases). Balance however cannot be achived by paper design. That has to happen after the game has already been made and is playable.


Ya I know balance happens afterwards. It is impossible to balance something thats not made or finished lol. Im new, not stupid :P


According to Valve, the process of balancing left 4 dead took a total of 3 years of playing, developing, tweeking and anaylizing the actual "finished" game (implying that the actual game L4D was essentially playable in mid 2005). No single person did this, it was the entire team. Plus, even after all that, the game is still chopped full of OMGWTFBBQ moments.

As for concept design, there's not some guy sitting in an office with an enourmous brain who thinks up ingenious concepts. Concepts can come from anyone on the team because most good concepts are spawned at random, not a product of sitting there trying to think of one for the next deadline. Although sometimes I think that's what EA does :)

Overall though, I would say to you, do not seek a job as a "designer". Quoting the guys at Epic for a second:
"What's our #1 fear? That you want to be a "designer""

And as already mentioned above, in the indie world, the job title "designer" doesn't even exist because people are so squeezed on resources (which is why I keep putting it in quote marks).

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can persue your goal of designing an awesome game, that's fine, but please don't waste your time trying to do that exclusivley. Not only that, but you really don't know if your ideas are good or not. They may sound good to you and your friends (and possibly everyone you tell it to) but unfortunatley you can't know how it will actually play out in a tangible game.


Well as I said I would be part of the team but doing more of the buisness side. Selling, sharing, advertising the game etc.. Being the entrepreneur of my own gaming company while sharing design concepts, helping out with balance and all that good stuff.


EDIT: I just remembered something actually *smacks forehead*. Why don't you prototype? Basicly, you take your gameplay concepts (which are the most crucial part) and make them into a playable form with a mod (Source or Unreal engine will do). That way at least you can know if you're on the right track or not, provided you can pull it off that is. From what I hear, you would also have a better chance of putting together a team of modders because "hardcore programmers" are rare.

I'd have to know what I was doing before I started a prototype :P

[starstutter]

I'd have to know what I was doing before I started a prototype :P
Well I was just saying that if you're going to test a gameplay mechanic, probably the best way to do that is with a mod, because (as I've heard) there's not a whole lot of hard programming involved and you get lots of tools. Try messing around with Hammer would be my advice.

[JarkkoL]

I believe your biggest challenge is how to have credibility of being able to lead a game development team. If you have no credibility, you can't get any funding or found a team who can finish a game. The answer to that might be to gain experience by working 5-10 years in industry, form industry connections and establish your own company after. Considering you are only 20, founding a successful game company after 5-10 years is extremely good achievement. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

[malignant]

Hey Cody,

I've seen some great advice, in reading through your thread here. Guilty of being just like any other developer of any bread or nature (whether programmatic, visual "design", or otherwise), I've been doing this abstract tallying in my head.
You've got plenty of points for sticking to your question, until you get the answer you’re looking for...
But, I don't really get it.
I gather that you're interested in making your ideas for games into actual games. I also gather that you're not really a programming master, and you're not a visual whiz kid, but you've got ideas, tons of ideas, and great ideas. No offense meant by this at all, but I've got lots of great ideas too... some of them include building 30ft tall igloos in -25 degree weather so my friends and I can put a wet bar in it and party like a bunch of wasted freaking Inuit’s. Like myself, this will lead you to hours of freezing your butt off, alone, with a huge heap of solid frozen snow in your back yard a week later.
Heed this metaphor. You passion is just that, yours, not anybody else’s (yet).
I did notice a number of times, seemingly knowledgeable people told you that you should start throwing together some simple games, and post them online, so that you'll get some exposure and be taken at least a little bit seriously. I have also noticed that you have continued to reply to your own thread 5 times with further questions and just a teensy bit of back talk, all within the same day...
Where's the game dude?
What I'm interested to know, as will be every employer in the game field, what is your skill set? What do you do? What end of game design do you want to be primarily active in?
Catch: You may not answer any of these questions with answers that involve paying other people or being an idea man.
If you don't have even one specialty under your belt, how could you possibly lend guidance and leadership to those under you (we're talking about a team of programmers, artists, etc...)?
My best advice would be to step backward, analyze your own goals and capabilities, and then decide whether or not to reply to this thread anymore. If you reply, and it's not with a link to some simple game you've made recently, you might not be as serious as you think.
Having worked only in professional business development and professional consumer relations positions thus far, I've learned a lot about sucking up my own ideas. Your ideas, without the experience to warrant a position of Chief Executive Leadership, will not come to fruition on the scale you're talking about.
Quick math:
At approximately $15/hour (average wage you may be able to get away with paying fairly inexperienced developers and artists) * 40 (hours in a full time work week) * 4 (a bare minimum number of developers for even simple games, simply, your lack of experience leaves you out of the question when it comes to filling the void)...
SO,
15 * 40 * 4 = $2,400/week
This does not include any benefits, and is extremely generous, as one lead programmer could be costing you that much per week alone. Never mind further somewhat miniscule overhead costs, such as web maintenance, or a networking consultant, or electric, or taxes for owning your own business, insurance, software, blah blah blah.
Unless you're independently or otherwise stupid wealthy, you will need to first hone your own skills. I've walked the halls of a few game studios in my time, and let me tell you brother, that's money.
Even for a tiny independent studio, you could be looking at start up costs from $500-$150,000, all depending a combination of your business plan, projected figures, and initial project scope.
NOTE: You’ll need at least %25 for a bank loan, if your credit’s unbelievably and impossibly awesome. More likely, you’ll be looking for Angel Investors, or Venture Capitalists. Either one of these will most likely require that you write into the bylaws or business plan a projected date that they can expect the company to go public or, flat out, be sold/bought out. Furthermore, you will in this circumstance be lucky to get 20% of anything that the business makes, and 99% of the legal liability incurred.
Speaking of scope by the way, those low ball $2,400/week figures I threw you… You can expect to pay that for at least three months before you start seeing any possibility for return on your investment.
I’ve seen stranger things on Sundays, but from a logistical point of view, and knowing business fairly well, I think you're struggling to get yourself in way over your head.
Sorry if that seems harsh or wordy, but I'd hate for you to get yourself into a position where you could regret chasing your dreams. If making those ideas a reality is what you want to do, here's my best advice.
1) Put down the toolbelt.
2) Go get a job in QA or some crap, just get your foot in the door of an actual development firm.
3) Find the skillset that you're most suited to and comfortable with, and stick with that professionally for at least 3-5 years.
4) While completing 3, study your butt of. Learn anything and everything you can learn about game development, but don't try to throw your two cents around at work unless you know what the hell you're talking about. Believe me, from personal experience, it'll only make you feel as dumb as you'll look.
5) After completing step 3, branch out into the other parts of the industry you've come to understand well enough to make a serious professional impact on. Do this with anything and everything you can for another 3-5 years, repeating the first part whenever necessary.
6) Having now worked in the industry for 6-10 years, you'll actually know what you're doing, and perhaps what it is you're trying to convey to others. Additionally, you'll be able to give guidance to struggling team members (there will always be struggling team members). You'll have had a few years to work on fleshing out some of your own ideas, and even save a little money. You can then look forward, to the bank, and proudly take a leak on it, knowing that the wind is no longer blowing straight toward your face.
This is the best I can give you, and I hope you're able to recieve it well.

~malignant

[Cody1895]

Hey Cody,

I've seen some great advice, in reading through your thread here. Guilty of being just like any other developer of any bread or nature (whether programmatic, visual "design", or otherwise), I've been doing this abstract tallying in my head.
You've got plenty of points for sticking to your question, until you get the answer you’re looking for...
But, I don't really get it.
I gather that you're interested in making your ideas for games into actual games. I also gather that you're not really a programming master, and you're not a visual whiz kid, but you've got ideas, tons of ideas, and great ideas. No offense meant by this at all, but I've got lots of great ideas too... some of them include building 30ft tall igloos in -25 degree weather so my friends and I can put a wet bar in it and party like a bunch of wasted freaking Inuit’s. Like myself, this will lead you to hours of freezing your butt off, alone, with a huge heap of solid frozen snow in your back yard a week later.
Heed this metaphor. You passion is just that, yours, not anybody else’s (yet).


Yes im interested in turning my idea's into games. Yes I do fancy my idea's pretty good ones or ones that can turn a profit. I know anyone and everyone can have idea's for games so there is no such thing as a "game thinker uper dude with great ideas!" but at the same time there's actual good idea's and stupid idea's. Take Diablo for instance. Fucking great idea. Good storyline, gameplay, sold millions of copies. Now take a idea like Superman 64 one of the worst games ever made. That's a bad idea. My point is an actual "great idea" is so the unsung hero of the gaming world.

You got a game like Bejeweled. A nice little puzzle game that everyone likes to play. Then you got the other 3000 puzzle games that didn't do as well. Why? Because the concept wasn't good enough for their games. Sure they get lots of plays and some of them sell pretty good but just not as good as Bejeweled. Graphics were the same or better, more work, more money even may have gone into others but it just doesn't match up vs the fun that can be had with this game. What make's it better then the others? The the idea for it. Anyone could of programmed bejeweled but only 1 person could have the idea for it. Really urks me when people say "Hey anyone can think of idea's" but in reality it's the great idea's that make the games good.


I did notice a number of times, seemingly knowledgeable people told you that you should start throwing together some simple games, and post them online, so that you'll get some exposure and be taken at least a little bit seriously. I have also noticed that you have continued to reply to your own thread 5 times with further questions and just a teensy bit of back talk, all within the same day...
Where's the game dude?
What I'm interested to know, as will be every employer in the game field, what is your skill set? What do you do? What end of game design do you want to be primarily active in?
Catch: You may not answer any of these questions with answers that involve paying other people or being an idea man.
If you don't have even one specialty under your belt, how could you possibly lend guidance and leadership to those under you (we're talking about a team of programmers, artists, etc...)?


If I started a small buisness paying programmers and artists to create games I want built why wouldn't they build them? If I started a constuction buisness doing siding on houses and hired my 4-5 people to do siding they would do their job because im paying them too. I don't need to really know anything about siding to start a buisness for it. As long as my workers know what their doing I can focus on getting new jobs to do, networking, ordering supplies etc.. All I need to know about siding is what the finish job looks like and provide feedback on what doesn't look right or what should be changed. They would go to each jobsite and finish their job to get a paycheck. Why doesn't that work with video games? I want to start a small buisness doing flash games. They are cheapest games to make and I got a lot of "idea's" yes I know how much you guys hate that word for little flash games.

Where's my game you ask? I don't have one yet or not sure if I ever will. I came here seeking advice for some questions on the gaming buisness and some info on some games if I could get it.

How can you even ask me that with the "catch" when my whole idea is to pay people to do the work I ask them to do and not be the programmer or artist. It's just ridiculous.

How can I lend advice etc.. to my team if needed when I don't know anything about programming or art? Well I can't really give to many programming tips as isn't it their job to know what to do? On the other hand I can give design tips on how things should look, how the mechanics of something should be, or critic the work of my artists and request something different to be drawn up. I can beta test the work. Just because I don't have any real experience doesn't mean I can't help them out and make their jobs easier or help out where needed. My guys are staying late I can go grab dinner for them or bring them something else they need.

Yes I do give some back talk but when everyone tells me the same thing over and over and treats me as I've never played a game before it's a little annoying is all XD.


My best advice would be to step backward, analyze your own goals and capabilities, and then decide whether or not to reply to this thread anymore. If you reply, and it's not with a link to some simple game you've made recently, you might not be as serious as you think.


Im 20 and im just looking for some feedback and information. Im as serious as I was a week ago when I posted this. Im pondering starting up a buisness to create games. Why must you shut me down so much?


Having worked only in professional business development and professional consumer relations positions thus far, I've learned a lot about sucking up my own ideas. Your ideas, without the experience to warrant a position of Chief Executive Leadership, will not come to fruition on the scale you're talking about.
Quick math:
At approximately $15/hour (average wage you may be able to get away with paying fairly inexperienced developers and artists) * 40 (hours in a full time work week) * 4 (a bare minimum number of developers for even simple games, simply, your lack of experience leaves you out of the question when it comes to filling the void)...
SO,
15 * 40 * 4 = $2,400/week
This does not include any benefits, and is extremely generous, as one lead programmer could be costing you that much per week alone. Never mind further somewhat miniscule overhead costs, such as web maintenance, or a networking consultant, or electric, or taxes for owning your own business, insurance, software, blah blah blah.
Unless you're independently or otherwise stupid wealthy, you will need to first hone your own skills. I've walked the halls of a few game studios in my time, and let me tell you brother, that's money.
Even for a tiny independent studio, you could be looking at start up costs from $500-$150,000, all depending a combination of your business plan, projected figures, and initial project scope.
NOTE: You’ll need at least %25 for a bank loan, if your credit’s unbelievably and impossibly awesome. More likely, you’ll be looking for Angel Investors, or Venture Capitalists. Either one of these will most likely require that you write into the bylaws or business plan a projected date that they can expect the company to go public or, flat out, be sold/bought out. Furthermore, you will in this circumstance be lucky to get 20% of anything that the business makes, and 99% of the legal liability incurred.
Speaking of scope by the way, those low ball $2,400/week figures I threw you… You can expect to pay that for at least three months before you start seeing any possibility for return on your investment.
I’ve seen stranger things on Sundays, but from a logistical point of view, and knowing business fairly well, I think you're struggling to get yourself in way over your head.
Sorry if that seems harsh or wordy, but I'd hate for you to get yourself into a position where you could regret chasing your dreams. If making those ideas a reality is what you want to do, here's my best advice.


Starting any buisness costs money. LOTS of money. Starting any buisness is a risk.. A BIG risk. 80% of small buisness's fail within the first year or less. Im fully aware that im probebly not going to be a huge success. I know your trying to help me but I've heard this a million times already and if you guys that are responding would stick to some positive tips or information on the questions I've asked that would be awesome. I know im a newbie with no experience and I am going to fail. I get it.


1) Put down the toolbelt.


Done! No work at the moment.. Stupid economy :(


2) Go get a job in QA or some crap, just get your foot in the door of an actual development firm.


I've tried. There's a shit load of companies in Vancouver and I've looked at all of them and or applied to work at a lot of them. Even when hiring QA testers they say "Requires 2-4 years experience" or some bullshit like that. ALL of them do. I read a thing on people apply to be QA testers at EA. They get like 20,000-30,000 applications/resumes every year to do QA. If you got no experience you ain't getting no job. It's quite the catch 22. Everyone says go get a QA job! It's not that easy.


3) Find the skillset that you're most suited to and comfortable with, and stick with that professionally for at least 3-5 years.


Well as I said in question #2 it's really hard to get a job as a QA tester or even get into the buisness of programming games. So creating a small buisness to make games was the idea I came up with to get around all that.


4) While completing 3, study your butt of. Learn anything and everything you can learn about game development, but don't try to throw your two cents around at work unless you know what the hell you're talking about. Believe me, from personal experience, it'll only make you feel as dumb as you'll look.


Isn't that how you learn though? By asking questions even if they make you look stupid? If you don't know you gotta ask. If you don't think that's the right course of action ask why.


5) After completing step 3, branch out into the other parts of the industry you've come to understand well enough to make a serious professional impact on. Do this with anything and everything you can for another 3-5 years, repeating the first part whenever necessary.
6) Having now worked in the industry for 6-10 years, you'll actually know what you're doing, and perhaps what it is you're trying to convey to others. Additionally, you'll be able to give guidance to struggling team members (there will always be struggling team members). You'll have had a few years to work on fleshing out some of your own ideas, and even save a little money. You can then look forward, to the bank, and proudly take a leak on it, knowing that the wind is no longer blowing straight toward your face.
This is the best I can give you, and I hope you're able to recieve it well.

~malignant

I know I sound like a little shit through this whole thing but again thank you for the response and you're tips are well noted and heard.

Im wanting to make some flash games to start out. Simple flash games and hire some people to make them for me. I may even take up the skills needed to make them on my own I haven't fully decided that yet. For now Im still set on hiring people to make my little flash games for me and put up a website where they can played and then purchase a enhanced version of the game for 5-10 bucks. So I can get the mochi ads, kongreget etc.. Advertisement money and then sell an advanced version of my games as well. This is my plan at the moment. So ya just thought I'd clarify my plan a bit more.

Again thank you for your feedback.

[malignant]

It's good to see that you're looking at some of this realistically. Also, it's ironic that you used a reference I can relate to. When I was 18 I did general contracting, and I know exactly what you mean, we just did our job, usually for some upper middle classs people that knew all about business, but nothing about construction and/or general contraccting. You know how ridiculous these people can get, but we were just there for the check, so ceste la ve.
Games and development in general is another story though. With wars raging on what's right regarding:
1) Best Practices
2) Standardization/Normalization
3) Correct Levels or Destandardization/Denormalization
and
3) UCD vs Agile (or whatever equivelent for games)
...developer want to work for somebody with a clear enough understanding of these principles as a matter of sanity.
Imagine this. Your guys, the ones that work for your new siding company (I'm just going to roll with you for a moment), just "finished" the job. You go to check the labor out before you tell the home owner their house is good to go, here's the billables.
The job called for J-Channels, to help with the local environments overly humid climate. But, when you get there, you find that all of the J-Channel has been installed incorrectly, and that the house will undoubtedly take on water over the next five years, possibly leading to deadly molds, and a fat lawsuit if you don't fix it...
Oh wait, did you know that the J-Channel was installed incorrectly? Probably not, and, even if you did, why didn't you go over it with them to begin with, rather than waiting all of that material/time? Because it's their job to know it?
Well, it's yours too. The truth is, people simply work better, and more reliably when lead by example. I was graced with the opportunity to work with my brother for a while. We had the most active team in the business, because he was always always always jamming out code that made even the companies top people go, "Whoa". It was funny, because he was one of the few guys that didn't really exist within the full control of their bosses dictum.
Why? Because, what were they going to say about his work? If they didn't understand anything but that it works, they still knew it would work.
If it didn't work though, who were they to say, "Oh it should do this".
No, the requirements were very clear, it does what it supposed to, not more. The whole team shined because of his lead. We regularly finished tasks ahead of schedule, and we even took time to experiment and learn more about the technology we were working with.
But, as the manager of the team, he wass regularly frustrated by the fact that the sales guys and the company heads were sometimes simply not reallistic about what we could do. They would go, tell a client, "Sure, we can do that.", and then come back to find out, oh wait, no we can't. It was pretty uncomfortable when this kind of thing would happen, because it puts everybody in a position to look like a fool.
The difference between your Game Dev Staff, and you crew of siders, is that the siders won't have their name scrawled across the road facing side of the house when the projects done. If it's a crap job, it's just your crap job, not theirs.
When it comes to games and technology, you'd also be surprised to find out how deep the terminology runs. If you can't convey the correct terms to people, the result will be constant frustration, and you'll never get what you're looking for. There's no one right way to build a program, but there are 6 million ways for one to die, if you can't correctly explain the requirements (which is a HELL of lot harder than you might think at first) then the team will never be able to produce any usable results.
Stay confident, and apply that diligence you've shown throughout this thread, it will serve you well once you've gotten yourself a foundation to stand on.
And finally...

Yes I do give some back talk but when everyone tells me the same thing over and over and treats me as I've never played a game before it's a little annoying is all XD.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and ultimately tastes like a duck, does that make it a chicken-cow? Come on man, nobody said, "You're GOING TO FAIL!", we just said, "You're going to need to be realistic." Believe me, these guys that you want to hire, to make your vision happen? If/when you find them, they're smart people. A lot of people can't think like a computer, and a lot of people that can take advantage of that. If you hire a bunch of really smart (and frequently very mischevious) guys to do something you're not even remotely familiar with, what do you think's going to happen? Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, you're pants will be found loosely resting around your ankles. It'll happen the first time you go bonkers because the deadline's coming up quicker than a speeding bullet and your peope can't figure out why the project blew up.
Moment of stern verbiage from me to you: Stop telling people around here that their "shutting you down" or not being positive enough. If we all say the same things, it's got nothing to do with positivity and moral support, that's wishy washy little girl crap anyway and you know it. If you didn't want the truth, or reallistic advice, you should have asked you friends or your mom. Being supportive and positive is their job, not ours. If we obfuscate the truth from ourselves, we shall be forever blind to reality. The fact is, people are trying to save you from any unexpected heart ache, by pointing out very real things. While friends and family will say, "Yeah, that sounds great," we will tell you the TRUTH, unbiased and raw. Nobody said it can't be done, but as the representatives of the demographic of employees you're going to be looking to hire, we're giving you FREE advice and consultation. If we were a staff of laywers, you'd already be broke, because what's been said is invaluable.
Today, I leave you with this.
Try. Do whatever your heart desires, but know this. While to try and fail is admirable, the definition of insanity is to repeat the same behavior over and over while expecting differant results. Don't let it drive you insane.

[alphadog]

Anyone could of programmed bejeweled but only 1 person could have the idea for it. Really urks me when people say "Hey anyone can think of idea's" but in reality it's the great idea's that make the games good.

You are right in thinking that a great game starts with a great vision. (BTW, Bejeweled is hardly original. It just sold well because of timing in the growth of casual Flash games.) But, you seem to think that game developers can't have great ideas, or that they can’t assume they have great ideas just like you; that great developers and great ideas are rare or mutually exclusive. If you think this, you are wrong.

You also seem to think that a great idea begets a great company, that a great vision will carry you to victory. If you think this, you are wrong. A small business is successful only when it has it all: vision, people, process, systems, cashflow and network. No, no business starts with it all, but you have to ask yourself if you have what it takes to deliver on all of that until such time as the business becomes self-supporting. In my experience, that takes four to seven years, irrespective of industry, probably seven for you since you come in as a blank slate. That’s a heavy investment to consider. Really, really heavy. Like “divorce” heavy. Like “where’s my dad tonight” heavy. Like “can’t make payroll for my employees” heavy.

You are also wrong in associating value to a game idea. An idea alone is not a starting point for a game studio business plan. You do have a solid business plan, right? Not a Game Design Document, but an actual business plan?

So, take the hypothetical independent, amateur or out-of-a-job-but-experienced game developer (meaning anyone not currently working for a studio). He/she is basically in the same boat as you, but is willing to code. He/she will have to decide: do I work on my idea and be my own boss, or do I throw in with Cody and work on his vision? How will you sell Cody Inc to them to sway them away from their vision to yours?

If I started a small buisness paying programmers and artists to create games I want built why wouldn't they build them?

Some good ones would; they want a paycheck and aren’t creative. But, they are very, very few, and therefore very hard to find. They also tend to like to ensconce themselves in AAA studios; it’s safer there, benefits are better, there’s others to collaborate with, etc…

So, you start a “talent search”; if you think that game is easy, then you are fooling yourself. Most skilled talent in game development do not perceive themselves as “grunt workers” that will execute someone else’s idea. That being said, you can move faster by outsourcing to some third-party general programmers or compromising on depth of talent. So, in either case you have a bunch of inexperienced (in your game genre) coders. What skills do you have to help them bring your idea to fruition? Which then segues into: where will you get the cash for all of that?

I’m going to skirt the whole “siding installer” comparison. It’s a minefield; especially since you use it with “grunt worker” undertones. Malignant already illustrated your naiveté with it. But, I will say that if you already perceive your team as being pay-to-code-my-idea, you are already handicapping your game.

How can you even ask me that with the "catch" when my whole idea is to pay people to do the work I ask them to do and not be the programmer or artist. It's just ridiculous.

The key question I’m asking is: what’s in the deal that would attract talent away from their own vision or from an established studio to your effort? How is your setup a win-win for you and the incoming talent?

How can I lend advice etc.. to my team if needed when I don't know anything about programming or art? Well I can't really give to many programming tips as isn't it their job to know what to do?

Yes, but what happens when your needs exceed their capabilities? What will you do then?

On the other hand I can give design tips on how things should look, how the mechanics of something should be, or critic the work of my artists and request something different to be drawn up. I can beta test the work. Just because I don't have any real experience doesn't mean I can't help them out and make their jobs easier or help out where needed. My guys are staying late I can go grab dinner for them or bring them something else they need.

First, how do we know you can do x (where x is one of the above example, like testing) right if you’ve never done x before? Second, how many x’s will you do and is that fair for you getting all the success and me just getting a simple wage? How’s my compensation structured in your business?

Yes I do give some back talk but when everyone tells me the same thing over and over and treats me as I've never played a game before it's a little annoying is all XD…..

This is very telling. It may just be a turn of the phrase, but if you even remotely think starting a business is “playing a game”, whoooo boy…

Im 20 and im just looking for some feedback and information. Im as serious as I was a week ago when I posted this. Im pondering starting up a buisness to create games. Why must you shut me down so much? … I know your trying to help me but I've heard this a million times already and if you guys that are responding would stick to some positive tips or information on the questions I've asked that would be awesome.

Tips? You’ve had a bunch of them for free! If you want to be propped up with a half-assed plan, you’ll have to hire a cheerleading squad and instruct them to follow you around shouting “Go Cody!”. It’ll be a minor expense under your small business budget… :)

I realize it’s tough to take; many of us have been there. You really only start getting The Truth™ in your twenties because you leave your school/family/friends cocoon and enter the Real World™. :) It’s shocking for some, because they may never have encountered it. Get used to it; it’s the best thing for someone who has any amount of entrepreneurial spirit.

Now, the world would be a dark place if it wasn’t for entrepreneurs. They are underappreciated for what they do. They are the only people willing to put their asses on the line for an audacious idea.

Your idea is not audacious. Starting a small studio is not an audacious idea. However, you are making a bunch of dangerous assumptions that can kill your efforts. We’re just trying to get you to think them through, rather than dismiss them as “will be resolved later”.

There’s audacious, and then there is foolhardy. Try not to be foolhardy…

[malignant]

I believe the best suggestions you can get without sliding into further scrutiny or justly antagonized ridicule have been given. It's ok to keep asking questions, but continually justifying why you didn't need tough crappy reality answers from those you asked in the first place is a whole other issue.
Good starting points from here would be to look into your local community college, and take even a four hour seminar on starting a small business.

From there, check out the IRS (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99336,00.html) and find out what you need to do to get yourself a registered business. Once you've got the business registered, you can start looking for people to work for you, just be prepared to pay them without making any money for a while. Once you've directed a few small but successful games through production, if you still aren't quite maknig it as far as you'd like to as quickly as you think you should, check out Inc.com (http://www.inc.com/articles/2001/09/23461.html) for information about what Angel Investors are, and where to find them (Good Luck!).

Once you have yourself registered as a business, if you're having a hard time finding people to work for you, you can always try advertising on monster. I think it costs about $250/week to advertise an individual job (with a lesser amount for multiple jobs listed), and a pay per/view fee is assessed for you to look at resumes dependant on your Payment Package. I'm not sure about Gamasutra's policies, but you definately better be prepared for the venture ahead if you're going to make your managerial search there. You only need to piss off one or two pros by not paying them on time to ensure never employing anybody again.

The other option is to get a group of friends that are passionately devoted to the cause of making games, but stale on ideas, and do a big group volunteer project, with promises to justly divide the bounty of your collective slave efforts. That's what my people do. We're a bunch of college graduates, sick of trying to find jobs making games, and too busy with life to stress over it. So, in our free time we slave our butts off...
Being the leader and primary decission maker guy, I keep a different perspective. I don't expect much of my people, and it would be silly if I did. THEIR ideas, will always come under scrutiny, though they all know that I'm not a steel wall. If you can sell it to me, you can sell it to the masses, I'm just a cheap bastard is all there is to it. Hell, I don't even pay them. They work whenever they can on MY project, while dinking around with their own projects. I work ALL the time on my project(s). The girlfriend, thank GOD, understands my dreams (but still gets pissed off from time to time). The difference between us, however, is that I'm the concept artist, the writer, the lead programmer, project manager, business manager, team manager, team member, sales/relations consultant, material purchaser, lead 2D and 3D designer, R&D department, Web Master, Networking Technician, Server Administrator, graphics consultant, advertiseing consultant, financial administrator, and human/internal relations director... and actually, I don't know a damn thing. Funny that works, huh?
Anyway, happy hunting, and the best of luck to you. This thread has provided you with enough information to fill the bulk of a university class on games, business, and life in general...
Aside from going out and starting your business for you, I don't know that there's much more we can do for you.

~malignant

[Cody1895]

It's good to see that you're looking at some of this realistically. Also, it's ironic that you used a reference I can relate to. When I was 18 I did general contracting, and I know exactly what you mean, we just did our job, usually for some upper middle classs people that knew all about business, but nothing about construction and/or general contraccting. You know how ridiculous these people can get, but we were just there for the check, so ceste la ve.
Games and development in general is another story though. With wars raging on what's right regarding:
1) Best Practices
2) Standardization/Normalization
3) Correct Levels or Destandardization/Denormalization
and
3) UCD vs Agile (or whatever equivelent for games)
...developer want to work for somebody with a clear enough understanding of these principles as a matter of sanity.
Imagine this. Your guys, the ones that work for your new siding company (I'm just going to roll with you for a moment), just "finished" the job. You go to check the labor out before you tell the home owner their house is good to go, here's the billables.
The job called for J-Channels, to help with the local environments overly humid climate. But, when you get there, you find that all of the J-Channel has been installed incorrectly, and that the house will undoubtedly take on water over the next five years, possibly leading to deadly molds, and a fat lawsuit if you don't fix it...
Oh wait, did you know that the J-Channel was installed incorrectly? Probably not, and, even if you did, why didn't you go over it with them to begin with, rather than waiting all of that material/time? Because it's their job to know it?
Well, it's yours too. The truth is, people simply work better, and more reliably when lead by example. I was graced with the opportunity to work with my brother for a while. We had the most active team in the business, because he was always always always jamming out code that made even the companies top people go, "Whoa". It was funny, because he was one of the few guys that didn't really exist within the full control of their bosses dictum.
Why? Because, what were they going to say about his work? If they didn't understand anything but that it works, they still knew it would work.
If it didn't work though, who were they to say, "Oh it should do this".
No, the requirements were very clear, it does what it supposed to, not more. The whole team shined because of his lead. We regularly finished tasks ahead of schedule, and we even took time to experiment and learn more about the technology we were working with.
But, as the manager of the team, he wass regularly frustrated by the fact that the sales guys and the company heads were sometimes simply not reallistic about what we could do. They would go, tell a client, "Sure, we can do that.", and then come back to find out, oh wait, no we can't. It was pretty uncomfortable when this kind of thing would happen, because it puts everybody in a position to look like a fool.
The difference between your Game Dev Staff, and you crew of siders, is that the siders won't have their name scrawled across the road facing side of the house when the projects done. If it's a crap job, it's just your crap job, not theirs.
When it comes to games and technology, you'd also be surprised to find out how deep the terminology runs. If you can't convey the correct terms to people, the result will be constant frustration, and you'll never get what you're looking for. There's no one right way to build a program, but there are 6 million ways for one to die, if you can't correctly explain the requirements (which is a HELL of lot harder than you might think at first) then the team will never be able to produce any usable results.
Stay confident, and apply that diligence you've shown throughout this thread, it will serve you well once you've gotten yourself a foundation to stand on.
And finally...



If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and ultimately tastes like a duck, does that make it a chicken-cow? Come on man, nobody said, "You're GOING TO FAIL!", we just said, "You're going to need to be realistic." Believe me, these guys that you want to hire, to make your vision happen? If/when you find them, they're smart people. A lot of people can't think like a computer, and a lot of people that can take advantage of that. If you hire a bunch of really smart (and frequently very mischevious) guys to do something you're not even remotely familiar with, what do you think's going to happen? Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday, you're pants will be found loosely resting around your ankles. It'll happen the first time you go bonkers because the deadline's coming up quicker than a speeding bullet and your peope can't figure out why the project blew up.
Moment of stern verbiage from me to you: Stop telling people around here that their "shutting you down" or not being positive enough. If we all say the same things, it's got nothing to do with positivity and moral support, that's wishy washy little girl crap anyway and you know it. If you didn't want the truth, or reallistic advice, you should have asked you friends or your mom. Being supportive and positive is their job, not ours. If we obfuscate the truth from ourselves, we shall be forever blind to reality. The fact is, people are trying to save you from any unexpected heart ache, by pointing out very real things. While friends and family will say, "Yeah, that sounds great," we will tell you the TRUTH, unbiased and raw. Nobody said it can't be done, but as the representatives of the demographic of employees you're going to be looking to hire, we're giving you FREE advice and consultation. If we were a staff of laywers, you'd already be broke, because what's been said is invaluable.
Today, I leave you with this.
Try. Do whatever your heart desires, but know this. While to try and fail is admirable, the definition of insanity is to repeat the same behavior over and over while expecting differant results. Don't let it drive you insane.

Thanks for the advise again.

[Cody1895]

You are right in thinking that a great game starts with a great vision. (BTW, Bejeweled is hardly original. It just sold well because of timing in the growth of casual Flash games.) But, you seem to think that game developers can't have great ideas, or that they can’t assume they have great ideas just like you; that great developers and great ideas are rare or mutually exclusive. If you think this, you are wrong.


Where do I say that people who develope games don't or can't think up great idea's? Don't put words in my mouth.


You also seem to think that a great idea begets a great company, that a great vision will carry you to victory. If you think this, you are wrong. A small business is successful only when it has it all: vision, people, process, systems, cashflow and network. No, no business starts with it all, but you have to ask yourself if you have what it takes to deliver on all of that until such time as the business becomes self-supporting. In my experience, that takes four to seven years, irrespective of industry, probably seven for you since you come in as a blank slate. That’s a heavy investment to consider. Really, really heavy. Like “divorce” heavy. Like “where’s my dad tonight” heavy. Like “can’t make payroll for my employees” heavy.


Again.. You're putting words in my mouth. I was simply defending idea's as they don't get too much credibility around here from people like me who say "Hey I've got an idea with no experience!"


You are also wrong in associating value to a game idea. An idea alone is not a starting point for a game studio business plan. You do have a solid business plan, right? Not a Game Design Document, but an actual business plan?


Im aware you can't sell idea's but at the same time with my Diablo and Superman 64 reference that idea's make all the difference. Yes it's the entire collaberation of work that makes a solid game but in my opinion the idea (including storyline, classes, gameplay, type of game, etc..) is what makes a game really good.


So, take the hypothetical independent, amateur or out-of-a-job-but-experienced game developer (meaning anyone not currently working for a studio). He/she is basically in the same boat as you, but is willing to code. He/she will have to decide: do I work on my idea and be my own boss, or do I throw in with Cody and work on his vision? How will you sell Cody Inc to them to sway them away from their vision to yours?


I don't understand this too much. I know you guys have infinite more talent and experience then me but this just doesn't make sense. Here's a situation.

Boss = Cody1895 aka me :P
Workers = People I hire to do what I say.

Lets say worker one is out of a job and looking for work and has just as many idea's as me. Im hiring X job for X amount of money. Now worker one decides to take the job as they are getting paid to do this. After a couple months he/she decides shes gonna start working on their on projects while im paying them to do what I've asked. I find out. I tell them that's unacceptable and they get fired because they weren't doing their job. Now worker one is out of a job and still has no where to make his/her idea's.

I mean why does anyone work for any employer then? If everyone could create their own dreams wouldn't they? It's just stupid to ask that question because everything boils down to employer and employee's and people who get their dreams and people who don't.

Also who's to say they can't bounce their hopes and dreams off me and talk about getting those games made too? That's an idea too.


Some good ones would; they want a paycheck and aren’t creative. But, they are very, very few, and therefore very hard to find. They also tend to like to ensconce themselves in AAA studios; it’s safer there, benefits are better, there’s others to collaborate with, etc…

So, you start a “talent search”; if you think that game is easy, then you are fooling yourself. Most skilled talent in game development do not perceive themselves as “grunt workers” that will execute someone else’s idea. That being said, you can move faster by outsourcing to some third-party general programmers or compromising on depth of talent. So, in either case you have a bunch of inexperienced (in your game genre) coders. What skills do you have to help them bring your idea to fruition? Which then segues into: where will you get the cash for all of that?


How does anyone get cash for a small buisness? Work a job and save up money for a while and then take out a loan if needed. Get an investor and or someone to fund your idea's.



I’m going to skirt the whole “siding installer” comparison. It’s a minefield; especially since you use it with “grunt worker” undertones. Malignant already illustrated your naiveté with it. But, I will say that if you already perceive your team as being pay-to-code-my-idea, you are already handicapping your game.

The key question I’m asking is: what’s in the deal that would attract talent away from their own vision or from an established studio to your effort? How is your setup a win-win for you and the incoming talent?


Someone who believes my games are good enough to create them for me in hopes we both get rich. Someone who doesn't have those great idea's and is just looking for a paycheck. It's a hard question considering I don't have a company or anything of the sorts.


Yes, but what happens when your needs exceed their capabilities? What will you do then?


Im making small flash games not rocket science. They are the simpliest games and if I was any good at my job i'd know what my team is capable of and what is out of reach.


This is very telling. It may just be a turn of the phrase, but if you even remotely think starting a business is “playing a game”, whoooo boy…


You misunderstand.. I didn't mean it like playing a game I ment it as i've never touched a console or a PC before. Complete 0 knows nothing about video games. That's what I ment.



Tips? You’ve had a bunch of them for free! If you want to be propped up with a half-assed plan, you’ll have to hire a cheerleading squad and instruct them to follow you around shouting “Go Cody!”. It’ll be a minor expense under your small business budget… :)

I realize it’s tough to take; many of us have been there. You really only start getting The Truth™ in your twenties because you leave your school/family/friends cocoon and enter the Real World™. :) It’s shocking for some, because they may never have encountered it. Get used to it; it’s the best thing for someone who has any amount of entrepreneurial spirit.

Now, the world would be a dark place if it wasn’t for entrepreneurs. They are underappreciated for what they do. They are the only people willing to put their asses on the line for an audacious idea.

Your idea is not audacious. Starting a small studio is not an audacious idea. However, you are making a bunch of dangerous assumptions that can kill your efforts. We’re just trying to get you to think them through, rather than dismiss them as “will be resolved later”.

There’s audacious, and then there is foolhardy. Try not to be foolhardy…

Yes I know i've gotten a lot of tips and help. The point I was trying to make was don't keep telling me the same redundent and repeditive statements such as "Starting a small buisness is a lot of work, it's not an easy thing to do." , "You need money and experience before you start a buisness" Or "The gaming industry is a lot of hard work!" sorta comments is what I was saying.

Also what's wrong with your own personal cheerleading squad? Sounds pretty great to me lol.

I also ment that I don't think im getting the answers im looking for (not the yay you can do anything cody gogogogo you're the best!) answers but the questions about the information on games like gunbound, maplestory with the microtransaction model and if anyone has any good info on how they started up etc.. Even on games like Runescape too.

Also anything you can tell me about flash games. Making them, selling them etc..

Im wanting to make some flash games to start out. Simple flash games and hire some people to make them for me. I may even take up the skills needed to make them on my own I haven't fully decided that yet. For now Im still set on hiring people to make my little flash games for me and put up a website where they can played and then purchase a enhanced version of the game for 5-10 bucks. So I can get the mochi ads, kongreget etc.. Advertisement money and then sell an advanced version of my games as well. This is my plan at the moment. So ya just thought I'd clarify my plan a bit more.


Quote from myself there what my kinda vision for starting out is. Now if you can give me some information on that sorta stuff that's more what im looking for info about.

[alphadog]

Where do I say that people who develope games don't or can't think up great idea's? Don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I am telling you what you sound like by your current choice of words in our limited interaction. Please don't misunderstand me; I have no idea who you really are. I only have your words to go by.

Im aware you can't sell idea's but at the same time with my Diablo and Superman 64 reference that idea's make all the difference.

Yes, ideas make all the difference. So, do people. So do good systems. So does a big lump of money. Etc, etc, etc. Ergo, no single thing "makes all the difference". I get your point that a better idea is better than a bad idea, but my point is that it's not about just ideas, but business success (as above just "game success") is about melding of all those "bests".

Lets say worker one is out of a job and looking for work and has just as many idea's as me. Im hiring X job for X amount of money. Now worker one decides to take the job as they are getting paid to do this. After a couple months he/she decides shes gonna start working on their on projects while im paying them to do what I've asked. I find out. I tell them that's unacceptable and they get fired because they weren't doing their job. Now worker one is out of a job and still has no where to make his/her idea's.

The problem is not thinking is aggregates and statistics. You are one of many different solutions appealing to a spectrum of people with different skillsets. It's a Vegas crapshoot when you are hiring, even when you know what you are doing.

I mean why does anyone work for any employer then? If everyone could create their own dreams wouldn't they? It's just stupid to ask that question because everything boils down to employer and employee's and people who get their dreams and people who don't.

Again, speaking statistically, the most common scenarios for available talent is a) wants to work for a big shop or b) wants to, like you, be in charge. Very few want to take a chance on an unproven, budding studio.

What we are telling you is the odds. And, yes, they aren't pretty. You may not like them, and you may choose to play them anyways (that's the great entrepreneurial spirit), but don't pick on people for not manufacturing a rosier picture for you...

How does anyone get cash for a small buisness? Work a job and save up money for a while and then take out a loan if needed. Get an investor and or someone to fund your idea's.

In this economy, you simply don't. :( Established companies are having a hard time getting credit even when "all signs point to yes" in the loaner's magic eight-ball.

However, theoretically, your sources basically fall into: banker, VC or angel. The former will never fund you early on unless you put up your house as collateral on a personal loan. The middle will not, unless you have a great idea they can take over. The latter is your best chance, assuming you have access to one and can make an elevator pitch that gets their interest. They usually are great business mentors too. Finding them is excruciatingly hard.

Im making small flash games not rocket science. They are the simpliest games and if I was any good at my job i'd know what my team is capable of and what is out of reach.

Hmm. Really simple games, i.e. the casual market, is already saturated and, while growing, is getting to be very expensive since people are expecting more and more.

Check out:
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/2/the_downside_of_the_casual_games_boom
http://gigaom.com/2008/05/02/casual-games-the-bottom-line/

Note that they both price a casual game at six figures in development costs! Do you have that cash on hand now?

I also ment that I don't think im getting the answers im looking for

Well, I would recommend starting a single thread for each concept/question you have, and try to make them as focused as possible...

Really. Good luck. I am an entrepreneur, so I can tell you the road is very hard, with major highs and lows. It's like stocks (entrepreneur) vs. bonds (desk job). More volatile, more risky, you can lose your shirt, and you have to do it when you are young. I have a wife and two daughters; I don't want to lose my house on an idea anymore...

[starstutter]

I'd just like to add something real quick.
Cody, unfortunatley I don't think you really understand the value (or the lack there-of) of an idea. Let me try to put this in simple terms of importace as I understand it, each taking a percentace slice out of the "importance pie":

- a compotent leader: %20
- a compotent team: %25
- a good development plan: %10
- game excecution and polish: %44.99
- an origional idea: %00.01

there is no value in a pure idea, only the excecution and expression of it. There were a hell of a lot of people that had the idea of building a flying machine before the wright brothers came along. The difference? They did a proper excecution of the invention.

Now take mirrors edge, a game that is very origional in concept and is very promising. However (so I've heard) the game itself was not very good, mainly because people felt it wasn't finished. Someday a company will come along and do that same concept, only better, and they'll reap the benefits and get credit. Its sad, but true. Another example: Gears of War was not the first to invent a cover system like they had, but they polished it to a mirror shine and thus got credit for the idea.

Think about some of your favorite existing games, flesh out a brief written discription on paper. A lot of fantastic games sound horrendously retarded on paper (take bioshock for instance).

The whole point of this is: ideas are fragile, subject to overwhelming change, and at the end of the day, worthless without good execution. And I think the thing we're trying to comunicate is that you have to do a whole lot more than come up with ideas (meaning you partly developing the game) if you want to succeed.

[Cody1895]

I'd just like to add something real quick.
Cody, unfortunatley I don't think you really understand the value (or the lack there-of) of an idea. Let me try to put this in simple terms of importace as I understand it, each taking a percentace slice out of the "importance pie":

- a compotent leader: %20
- a compotent team: %25
- a good development plan: %10
- game excecution and polish: %44.99
- an origional idea: %00.01

there is no value in a pure idea, only the excecution and expression of it. There were a hell of a lot of people that had the idea of building a flying machine before the wright brothers came along. The difference? They did a proper excecution of the invention.


You have a point but stills in my opinion and opinions cannot be wrong as they are your own feelings and thoughts towards something.. I believe idea's deserve more credit then they get as you put.

Yes they had a lot of people trying to create the first flying machine. Then they did it and now theres X amount of companies who all make planes. Invention of something like a plane doesn't really fit into this. Im not making the first 2D game. Im making another 2D game that's going to be different and original in it's own way.


Now take mirrors edge, a game that is very origional in concept and is very promising. However (so I've heard) the game itself was not very good, mainly because people felt it wasn't finished. Someday a company will come along and do that same concept, only better, and they'll reap the benefits and get credit. Its sad, but true. Another example: Gears of War was not the first to invent a cover system like they had, but they polished it to a mirror shine and thus got credit for the idea.


Well I mean that's because EA was apart of it and no doubt rushed out yet another unfinished game "cough" force unleashed "cough".

Yes someone will come along and do it better. Look at the car. Look at how anything evolves. Yes Gear did it better and made it there own. Also they added their own twists (Idea's!) on it to make it better then others. Again look at the Bejeweled game. They made it better and more fun then other puzzle games like it hence it's popularity.

Honestly theres thousands apon thousands of programmers who can all do the same thing. Program. There's that one person with that great idea who makes it better and original and gives it that extra it needs to be the next Gears etc..


Think about some of your favorite existing games, flesh out a brief written discription on paper. A lot of fantastic games sound horrendously retarded on paper (take bioshock for instance).

The whole point of this is: ideas are fragile, subject to overwhelming change, and at the end of the day, worthless without good execution. And I think the thing we're trying to comunicate is that you have to do a whole lot more than come up with ideas (meaning you partly developing the game) if you want to succeed.

Idea's are simply replaced with better idea's usually or different ways to work with them which is great. Great idea with bad execution = fail, bad idea with great execution = fail. It's the collaberation of both that makes it work. Again you're preaching to the choir here. I feel like a broken record when I say this. Im fully aware I can't be the zomg I haz an idea guy! I have a shit tonne more responsibilities that are going to stress me out and make life hard. I get it!

[JarkkoL]

Coming up with ideas is part of the job of programmers, artists and designers. It's the fun and tiny creative part of the entire development cycle no one wants pass to an "idea guy". Coming up with "great" ideas is dead easy. It's the implementation of those ideas that's the difficult part. Everyone of us can take any shipped game and come up with ideas how to make those games better. That can get you deluded into thinking that you have better ideas than the developers of the game. However, it's not the lack of ideas that made the game the way it is, but the implementation/resource challenges. It's also way easier to criticize a finished product than it is one which is in development and has tons of placeholder assets and unfinished/unpolished/buggy functionality.

[alphadog]

Honestly theres thousands apon thousands of programmers who can all do the same thing. Program.

:surprise: (first time I ever use it, but it fits so well)

The above is so insultingly wrong it's not even funny. In fact, this attitude is why, if I were an angel investor and you told me that, I'd put you in my LIKELY TO FAIL column and move on to the next young-and-wide-eyed-excessive-game-player-turned-game-designer-and-studio-owner.

Of course, this could all be in your opinion, in which case apparently it cannot be wrong.

[starstutter]

bad idea with great execution = fail.
please provide me an example of this. I could be wrong, but I've never seen that happen. A bad idea transforms into a good idea with good execution. In fact, that's the *definition* of a good execution.


Honestly theres thousands apon thousands of programmers who can all do the same thing. Program.
Oh!, you mean kind of like how there's thousands upon thousands of tattoo artists that do the same thing, tattoo. Maybe some are better than others, but hey, they're both equally good because they had the same idea!

http://www.jokebanana.com/images/fullsize/tattoo_fail_big_image.jpg

[alphadog]

At this point, I will walk away from this thread, since it is just repeating the same things, with good luck and best wishes. I do think banging your head against Reality will be your next teacher.

I'm not saying it's impossible, since I know better; I've started small businesses myself. It's just much, much harder than you can imagine and I fear that your understanding of things is naive.

Keep us posted on how your studio startup goes.

Hit the books before too. They will discuss game business startup much more than anyone in a forum has time for posting. I recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Game-Business-2nd-Ed/dp/1584503998/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230740082&sr=8-2
and
http://www.amazon.com/Business-Legal-Primer-Game-Development/dp/1584504927/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

Charles River has more books in their series worth getting. Feel free to come back with more precise questions and problem spots...

Two key piece of advice:

1. Good entrepreneurs know how to find and get investors. Great entrepreneurs figure out how to create cash from other people's cash.

2. Ideas won't get you money. Heck, even a great business plan won't get you money, although they are a starting point for any discussion with investors. Writing a Powerpoint slideset, writing your pitch, and then pestering skeptical strangers for money is not the way to create a startup. Only money (cashflow) gets you money. Your first goal in a startup is to establish the most solid cashflow you can. You then have to figure out how to parlay it into more cashflow.

[Cody1895]

:surprise: (first time I ever use it, but it fits so well)

The above is so insultingly wrong it's not even funny. In fact, this attitude is why, if I were an angel investor and you told me that, I'd put you in my LIKELY TO FAIL column and move on to the next young-and-wide-eyed-excessive-game-player-turned-game-designer-and-studio-owner.

Of course, this could all be in your opinion, in which case apparently it cannot be wrong.

I didn't mean it so literally to insult you. You guys are shutting down idea's as anyone jerk off can think of one. So I was simply saying that there's a crap load of programmers out there too that can all program as some are fantastic at it (like great idea's) and some are bad like a bad idea. Saying it goes both ways. I am sorry if you took it that way I didn't mean it like that.

Well is it's my opinion that I believe that idea's are worth more then you give them credit for then yes it's correct. Again you were trying to prove my opinion wrong before but I was just trying to end that arguement by saying im not changing my answer as it's what I believe to be true.

[Cody1895]

please provide me an example of this. I could be wrong, but I've never seen that happen. A bad idea transforms into a good idea with good execution. In fact, that's the *definition* of a good execution.


Oh!, you mean kind of like how there's thousands upon thousands of tattoo artists that do the same thing, tattoo. Maybe some are better than others, but hey, they're both equally good because they had the same idea!

http://www.jokebanana.com/images/fullsize/tattoo_fail_big_image.jpg

That's actually exactly what I ment.. Look at it. Same idea done twice. In that person's eyes that's the tattoo they wanted and it was a good idea to them and they liked it. One of the tattoo's looks like crap done by one artist (programmer) and one looks really good and well done by another artist (programmer) It's the exact same thing.

Tattoo 1: Good idea [check] bad artist [check]
Tattoo 2: Good idea [check] good artist [check]

Ones really good. Ones a peice of crap. Thanks for the great example though.

Also where do I say that you can have a good idea with bad execution? I didn't I infact said you need them both to make something good. I never said great idea with no execution = moneys! Like tattoo 1. I said it has to be like tattoo number 2 yet I beleive idea's don't get the credit they deserve.

How about all those barbie / girl targeting only games that almost all of them fail. The games themselfs are nicely put together or at least the most recent ones and the game is just simply bad and boring and didn't do a very good job of targeting girls.

Also they might start with a bad idea and then through good execution you say it grows into a good idea. Well the bad idea would never be there because any game thats a success isn't a bad idea at all it's a good one. It would just waste a shit load of time making the game if you started with a bad idea and you knew it. If your thinking "Im not sure about this idea at all, I really not sure if this is gonna sell" you wouldn't be knocking on doors asking for money to make it. That's just stupid. Who would invest or work for someone if they think the idea is bad also. It would be go back to the drawing board and think of something good.

[Cody1895]

At this point, I will walk away from this thread, since it is just repeating the same things, with good luck and best wishes. I do think banging your head against Reality will be your next teacher.

I'm not saying it's impossible, since I know better; I've started small businesses myself. It's just much, much harder than you can imagine and I fear that your understanding of things is naive.

Keep us posted on how your studio startup goes.

Hit the books before too. They will discuss game business startup much more than anyone in a forum has time for posting. I recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Game-Business-2nd-Ed/dp/1584503998/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230740082&sr=8-2
and
http://www.amazon.com/Business-Legal-Primer-Game-Development/dp/1584504927/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

Charles River has more books in their series worth getting. Feel free to come back with more precise questions and problem spots...

Two key piece of advice:

1. Good entrepreneurs know how to find and get investors. Great entrepreneurs figure out how to create cash from other people's cash.

2. Ideas won't get you money. Heck, even a great business plan won't get you money, although they are a starting point for any discussion with investors. Writing a Powerpoint slideset, writing your pitch, and then pestering skeptical strangers for money is not the way to create a startup. Only money (cashflow) gets you money. Your first goal in a startup is to establish the most solid cashflow you can. You then have to figure out how to parlay it into more cashflow.

Cya and thanks for all your tips!

[starstutter]

How about all those barbie / girl targeting only games that almost all of them fail. The games themselfs are nicely put together or at least the most recent ones and the game is just simply bad and boring and didn't do a very good job of targeting girls.

Well that's a tough one to call. How can you tell if the idea was bad or just the execution of it? The games goal was obviously to be fun, and its not. But is this because the idea itself is bad? Its not because its childish. There's tons of horrendously juvenile games that aren't bad (ie: Zack & Wiki and Lego Star Wars).

But here's the highlight of my day:

(abbriged)
the games are nicely put together and they are just simply bad and boring

so what's your definition of "nicley put together"? The only thing I can possibly think of that you mean is that they're not buggy, but that doesn't have a whole lot to do with how good the game is.

Have you played the PC version of GoW? Its a terrible port to say the least. There's a bug, glitch or game crashing error every 5 minutes (and thats being generous), but the game is still not bad at all. Why? Because the well excecuted mechanics and all the other things that made it great are still there. And no, those mechanics are not origional, GoW is not origional in the least, its just been well built and polished by experienced gameplay programmers.

Maybe you don't think this, but I feel I should mention it anyway. Designing gameplay to the smallest detail, and programming it are two totally seperate things. You sort of come off like you think that creating great gameplay is only a matter of designing everything perfectly, experimenting, and then retrying. Thats true partly, but programming it is the tough part.

Do you know how difficult it is to just recreate the jumping patters of mario? Yeah that may sound easy but its suprisingly difficult to get it right. Its the exact same thing as:
thinking of the perfect paining
vs
painting it
And that is talking about *gameplay*, not technology (although both apply)

EDIT: To further clear up my thoughts on this, I want you to try something:
1. Find a friend thats good at art (hopefully you know at least one who is)
2. Draw out a vauge, very very messy picture of what you want drawn in clear detail (aka a design document)
3. Now stand behind him the entire time he's drawing telling him exactly what to do and correcting him every time you think hes beginning to make a mistake.
If you're not murdered after that excersize, you may get an idea of why its not a good idea to "just pay people to make your ideas for you".

[kusma]

I've just briefly read some of the posts here, but I'd like to offer some of my experience to you, Cody:

1) Setting up a start-up is a LOT of work. A LOT. Every single person in a start-up must be absolutely worth their wage, and then some. You can't afford dead-weight in the start-up phase, not even in the management. My advice is to not think or work like "boss" and "employee", but to do "real work" yourself (be that artwork, programming, audio, talking to potential investors/partners, play-testing, cleaning the floors, whatever as long as it's worth your wage), not just "sit with the ideas and vision" - that's not a full-time job in a start-up. Remember, you'll be paying your own wage ;)

2) Make sure you find some talented people, and give them stocks or stock-options in your company. Stocks and stock-options justify giving a low(er) wage as long as the employees believe in the company.

3) You seem to believe that there's a infinite resources of coders out there fully competent to write the same high-quality code - this is very far from true. First, most programmers are pretty bad. And then, most talented programmers already have a good job, and for every talented coder that doesn't, there's a thousand crappy ones wanting to get into gamedev. It can be very difficult trying to find the talented ones without having one already that can help you out in the hiring process. So that's kinda a chicken-and-egg problem. Most successful start-ups I've seen, has started with talented people. So my advice is this: get some talent quickly, and put them in key positions (but for the love of god - make sure you utilize their talent as well, see my first point :P).

Anyway, I hope you take some of this advice. Good luck :)

[alphadog]

Another tip: Don't put friends in key positions. If you have any salesy ability, and you need a fair amount of it for your startup, you will sell your vision to people to get them to join. It's easier to get friends excited than strangers, so founders tend to surround themselves with friends. This is made more likely because it's easier to trust friends.

Your enthusiasm will become theirs. But, you are the sole visionary, not them. A vision always belongs solely to one person, no matter how well you may share it. You are the source.

At some point, their excitement may fade. Or, even if they remain excited as you and with you, at some point, they may become unsuited skillset-wise for the job you gave them.

In either case, if you put a friend there, you now will have to potentially fire a friend.

Do yourself a favor early on and keep real friends and family as far from your enterprise as possible. It only takes one to potentially sink your company.

[malignant]

Word.
I mean, what else can I say. I'm going to join in the movement away from this thread. I believe you could effectively cover more ground by asking new questions about different things.
It was mentioned earlier, that we're just circling around the same crap, and THAT is true.
In the future however, you might consider this model for free advice inquisition.
1) Ask a straight forward and articulated question.
2) Accept the answers you get, you asked for them damnit.
Honestly theres thousands apon thousands of programmers who can all do the same thing. Program. There's that one person with that great idea who makes it better and original and gives it that extra it needs to be the next Gears etc..
3) NEVER EVER GROUP PEOPLE LIKE THAT AGAIN!
I met a couple of those guys that made Gears, and I'll tell you what, you've got nothing on them when it comes to Vision. I was there when they took the DCA (Developers Choice Award) for Technology, Visual, and Game of the Year during the GDC in 2007... it was actually a really touching evening, for anybody else that knows what happened that night.
Anyway, without cutting on you any further in a manner unfitting. I am a visual designer, working on my programming, with history of being a tattoo artist, ironically.
You, my fine feathered friend, are what the world thinks of as a know it all.
Why feathered? Because it takes a real chicken to come around an intangible community talking smack about how skilled tradespersons are interchangeable. Skilled people, that unlike yourself, spent THOUSANDS OF (maybe hundreds of thousands of) DOLLARS on educating themselves, and COUNTLESS HOURS of dedicated practice of those skills they learned. Not to mention the fact that most of us sought our answers with an heir of humility and grace, because that's simply what you do when you don't know ****. And, to back that feathering up a little more, you speak of things as if you knew what you were talking about. Home boy, I've waxed it out with people from Microsoft to Square-Enix to Activision. I've worked as an intern, serving as a communications specialist for Multimedia and Game Development Students, keeping contact with local, national, and international game development firms. Everything you're hearing, for the most part, is true. Suck it up, and accept the answers you've asked for.
And if you think this is misguided rage or unfair picking on, I could never even hope to belittle you as much as you have already done to yourself.
Watching the progression of this thread is like reading a particularly worthy Darwin Award. Dead in the water and thank god for that.
I promise, this is the last thing I'll say. Never mind just hiring programmers. You need to hire a writer and concept artists before you even think about programming. Your written communication skills are horrible. An occasional typo is one thing, but you regularly display awful grammar and a lack of command for the English language. The concept artist suggestion is because you said you can tell if something looks right or not, but I doubt it. What do you about design theory, balance and form, or Usability/User Experience? What do you know about the human cognitive studies that have been done to determine the most visually palatable means of conveying an applicable interface to the end user?
Oh, wait, there I go asking stupid questions again. I somehow forgot in my tangent, that you've clearly expressed numerous times that you already know everything well enough to ask the questions of your answers that should eventually lead back to confirming exactly what you thought in the first place.
Best of luck to you in all of your endeavors. I sincerely hope that your facing attitude changes before you ever speak to a development studio. They all know each other or have means of contact on some level in some manner, and they don't hesitate to communicate "bad egg" stories.
~malignant

[starstutter]

malignant

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08RM2bBcqTfeN/610x.jpg

[Cody1895]

Word.
I mean, what else can I say. I'm going to join in the movement away from this thread. I believe you could effectively cover more ground by asking new questions about different things.
It was mentioned earlier, that we're just circling around the same crap, and THAT is true.
In the future however, you might consider this model for free advice inquisition.
1) Ask a straight forward and articulated question.
2) Accept the answers you get, you asked for them damnit.


Honestly, im baffled really. That you honestly believe I didn't pose questions to be answered.

This is beyond belief rofl. You admit to circling around the same crap and yet im the one who couldn't ask the question.. I justified myself in saying I didn't mean to be number 1 hot shot making the next GoW. I simply wanted to make flash games. Games created in a couple days to a month. These games aren't too complexed and do not take a lot to make. I said over and over thank you for the information on buisness start up, I would like tips on flash games and microtransaction model's. Yet.. You guys continued to circle around "You're not getting it kid! Making video games is hard work!". I go okay, thank you again then yet another person, and another person comment on the same shit over and over.

I've yet to have to have a major question answered other then the "realistic" side of starting up a buisness.

I'll list the other questions I've attempted to ask.

- Information on the microtransaction model for online games such as, Gunbound, Maplestory.

Not a single response addressing any of this.

- Has anyone here started up a company with hiring people to create the games you've invisioned? Starting a small buisness and how it played out. If so how did it go and what can you reccomend.

Little info on this one. Mostly the same old "It's hard, you need money, you'll prolly won't hire anyone"

- So im going to be doing 2D games mostly and im assuming they are cheaper from what I've read online. Does anyone know how much cheaper the cost is from 2D to 3D usually?

Yes a general question with every game being different. Yet not a single compairison of a 2D game or a 3D game was made to say how different the two were in price. I was asking if you've worked on both types what have you noticed in the difference price wise etc.. Yet no answer other then "The price varies" Well no shit. Every job is different. You can still say you find 2D to be cheaper or equal to the price of 3D games usually. You could still provide imput other then that line.

How about the programs needed to make the games? How do they differ in price? How would my studio be affected by this. This question is general because it's so open a handful of questions could be asked with it and they are you just couldn't answer them.

- Information on flash games

I clarify myself saying I didn't mean larger scale games. I say I want to create flash games. Simple flash games is what I said. Zero information on flash games. I ask another time. I didn't mean xbox live games or anything like that. Flash games. Simple flash game info on them and if you have any experience with them. Again no info.

I've asked lots of question but all you guys seem to focus on is telling me common sense. I tell you over and over I don't need that sort of info but thank you anyways. Can we focus on my questions about flash games and microtransaction models etc.. Again, "Hey Cody, starting a small buisness will cost a lot of money!"

Ugh.. How do I be any clearer that im not that bright eyed and bushy tailed 13 year old who stumbled onto the site going "HAY GUYS I WANNA MAKE BIDEO GAMES!11! GIB INFO PRZZ!" I started out a little vague but I clarified myself many times saying what I ment and what I want to do. Told you I have the common sense that a buisness takes money to get started, balance can't be done before a game is finished, and it's a lot of hard work and man hours to run a company. It's like you only see what you want to see when I post. You nit pick out what you want to post on and rarely addressing entirely what I've said.

It's really hard to get a question answered when no one actually respondes to it, rather tippy toe around it to tell you something else.

Honestly I feel like im in school and I went up to my Tech ED teacher and asked some questions about the soddering. Then he ends up telling me 5 * 4 = 20 + 2 = 22. Well that's cool and all but it's not answering my question at all about soddering.

You ask me to ask the right questions? The questions are there. Just no one to answer them.


3) NEVER EVER GROUP PEOPLE LIKE THAT AGAIN!
I met a couple of those guys that made Gears, and I'll tell you what, you've got nothing on them when it comes to Vision. I was there when they took the DCA (Developers Choice Award) for Technology, Visual, and Game of the Year during the GDC in 2007... it was actually a really touching evening, for anybody else that knows what happened that night.
Anyway, without cutting on you any further in a manner unfitting. I am a visual designer, working on my programming, with history of being a tattoo artist, ironically.

You, my fine feathered friend, are what the world thinks of as a know it all.
Why feathered? Because it takes a real chicken to come around an intangible community talking smack about how skilled tradespersons are interchangeable. Skilled people, that unlike yourself, spent THOUSANDS OF (maybe hundreds of thousands of) DOLLARS on educating themselves, and COUNTLESS HOURS of dedicated practice of those skills they learned. Not to mention the fact that most of us sought our answers with an heir of humility and grace, because that's simply what you do when you don't know ****. And, to back that feathering up a little more, you speak of things as if you knew what you were talking about.


You know what. You're right.. I'm sorry. There's only a select few people who can make quality games and you're one of them. My mistake.

With billions of people on the earth there's only a select few who can do things right? Like doctors. Yea I bet there isn't thousands of doctors who aren't really good at their job either. Didn't spend 10 years in school and aren't capable of doing things that a select few doctors can do.. Oh wait.. Get off your high horse mister. It's a long hard fall when reality kicks you in the nuts, or do you really think you're that special? Oh wise king of games.


Home boy, I've waxed it out with people from Microsoft to Square-Enix to Activision. I've worked as an intern, serving as a communications specialist for Multimedia and Game Development Students, keeping contact with local, national, and international game development firms. Everything you're hearing, for the most part, is true. Suck it up, and accept the answers you've asked for.


Yo dawg! You're right on this one. Everything I did hear for the most part is true. That starting a buisness is hard work and making games isn't easy. That's really all that was said chopped up and spit out in different ways with different words.


And if you think this is misguided rage or unfair picking on, I could never even hope to belittle you as much as you have already done to yourself.
Watching the progression of this thread is like reading a particularly worthy Darwin Award. Dead in the water and thank god for that.


Lol strawman. Attack me personally more please.


I promise, this is the last thing I'll say.


Rofl I hope so because im about to shut you up.


Never mind just hiring programmers. You need to hire a writer and concept artists before you even think about programming.


Not if you're making flash games. As I've said and made clear that im making. Stop reading only what you want.


Your written communication skills are horrible. An occasional typo is one thing, but you regularly display awful grammar and a lack of command for the English language.

Lol wait for it.


The concept artist suggestion is because you said you can tell if something looks right or not, but I doubt it. What do you about design theory


Bam. Not even two sentences away lol. I don't know what I about design theory. What do you about?

Lol too good. Anyways im sorry I didn't copy and paste my stuff into word so it would have all the correct puncuation and grammar. Really though you all understood what I was saying and I believe it was star who said no one around here really cares or tries to use it fully because it's not a big deal on the internet.

PS: Grammar insults really? Work on that strawman friend. Everyone knows you're out of insults when you have to result to nit picking someones grammar.


, balance and form, or Usability/User Experience? What do you know about the human cognitive studies that have been done to determine the most visually palatable means of conveying an applicable interface to the end user?


I already admited to knowing nothing about making video games and im nothing 20 year old with a big dream. All that's been given is a lot of common sense about starting up a buisness.


Oh, wait, there I go asking stupid questions again. I somehow forgot in my tangent, that you've clearly expressed numerous times that you already know everything well enough to ask the questions of your answers that should eventually lead back to confirming exactly what you thought in the first place.

Know everything no. Not even close. Know from 8 different people making games is hard? YES! Ya, confirmed to me that you can't answer any god damn questions but the ones you choose to repeat like broken records.



Best of luck to you in all of your endeavors. I sincerely hope that your facing attitude changes before you ever speak to a development studio. They all know each other or have means of contact on some level in some manner, and they don't hesitate to communicate "bad egg" stories.
~malignant

Hmm. So here's what I've taken from this whole thread. Summary if you will.

You're upset with me because I am upset with you for not answering the question's i've asked. I asked not to be told about the buisness side and how hard it is anymore but rather info about the things I originally requested. You don't like me talking back and get more upset. I defend the concept/idea part of creating a game as I believe it deserves more credit then they get. You don't like it and all hell breaks loose and everyones now agaisnt me as im just a stupid child who know's nothing. You're right I don't know shit but I got a 1+ on you. I can at least answer all the fucking questions asked.

[alphadog]

You don't listen, do you?

Start separate threads for your four big, and dangerously overgeneralized questions.

Or else, this thread suddenly becomes four conversations at once and no one will want to spend time to dice it out.

I wouldn't bother with question 2, though. Much too vague. Answers will be all over the place, and then you'll say we didn't answer you, and we'll get pissed off that instead of being polite you bashed the answers, and everyone will get hostile all over again...