MMOFPS?

[ICantTell]

As the topic says, do you think a MMOFPS (Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter) could be done? I have no plans on making one (seeing as how my programming/artistic skills) haven't yet "bloomed", but I am interested in other peoples thoughts on the subject. I haven't thought to deeply into it, I am still wondering if there would be an RPG element mixed in, but the main focus would of course be the FPS. Comments, ideas, thoughts?

[baldurk]

The lag would be unbearable. Almost all modern MMOs that I'm aware of work on a turn based system. For one, this reduces the amount of data that needs to get sent and received. For another, it means that lag spikes are much less noticable, and make less of an effect on the gameplay.

Besides which, how would you have an "experience" system so that older players are better than newer players? what if a new player joins who is masterful with whatever gun he starts with and can slaughter players who are older? With FPSs it's all about skill, not about time.

Just my thoughts.

[ICantTell]

Like I said, I haven't thought about it that much, but that is a good point about the lag. As for the "experience", I guess it would have to have an rpg quality to it, maybe leveling up your gun, speed, ammo capacity, jump height if applicable, health, stamina, etc.

[Nodlehs]

Planet Side is a first person MMOFPS. And it runs pretty decent. Your objectives are team based, to capture territory from bases and such. Its fun, but after a couple nights of working for hours to gain territory, then log in in the morning to see your team lost it all, is a bit repetitive and defeating.

[Methulah]

PlanetSide is a great version of an MMOFPS (there is even one that begun here at devMASTER DarkFuture (http://darkfuture.web.pt).

New MMORPGs are gravitating towards action based combat (eg click to attack). These are D&D Online... WoW etc. The system does have lag spikes, but most of want DSL or higher.

MMOFPS' will be a big part of the MMO scene in the future, and ways to add experience are...
Acurracy. A characters skill with a weapon (where it shoots compared to where (s)he wants it too).
Criticals. Higher skill level = higher chance of hitting a crit.
Wieldable Weapons. This is choice MMO makers have to make. Whether or not allow characters with certain experiance wield certain weapons. This kills realism, yet significantly stops twinks from running rampage. This method could be used to constrain newbies to newbie weapons.

A MMOFPSRPG is possible, but a true MMOFPS would be no fun, as the game needs to have roleplaying elements.

[ICantTell]

Ahh, I was unaware of Planet Side being a MMOFPS, I knew Planet Side existed, but I don't think I ever knew what type of game it was, and I agree that a straight MMOFPS would be quite boring.

[baldurk]

PlanetSide is a great version of an MMOFPS (there is even one that begun here at devMASTER DarkFuture (http://darkfuture.web.pt).

New MMORPGs are gravitating towards action based combat (eg click to attack). These are D&D Online... WoW etc. The system does have lag spikes, but most of want DSL or higher.

MMOFPS' will be a big part of the MMO scene in the future, and ways to add experience are...
Acurracy. A characters skill with a weapon (where it shoots compared to where (s)he wants it too).
Criticals. Higher skill level = higher chance of hitting a crit.
Wieldable Weapons. This is choice MMO makers have to make. Whether or not allow characters with certain experiance wield certain weapons. This kills realism, yet significantly stops twinks from running rampage. This method could be used to constrain newbies to newbie weapons.

A MMOFPSRPG is possible, but a true MMOFPS would be no fun, as the game needs to have roleplaying elements.
18167


That's not really what I'd call an FPS in the spirit of an FPS. Look at Quake 3. That's a classic FPS to my eyes. That means that an MMO which is done from a first-person point of view, but in all other ways isn't an FPS, isn't an MMOFPS :).

For example, look at world of warcraft. I haven't played it, but I'd be surprised if the more times you click, the more damage you do. Or the closer to the enemy's head you click, the more damage you do. It's things like that that I think would qualify an MMO as an MMOFPS. And that's also why I think it's unfeasible.

I haven't played planetside so I can't really comment on it.

I guess I'm just stricter in defining genres than others. A game like tribes wouldn't be an MMOFPS to me, but to others it might - 64 players in the same area is about the same as most MMOs.

[baldurk]

PlanetSide is a great version of an MMOFPS (there is even one that begun here at devMASTER DarkFuture (http://darkfuture.web.pt).

New MMORPGs are gravitating towards action based combat (eg click to attack). These are D&D Online... WoW etc. The system does have lag spikes, but most of want DSL or higher.

MMOFPS' will be a big part of the MMO scene in the future, and ways to add experience are...
Acurracy. A characters skill with a weapon (where it shoots compared to where (s)he wants it too).
Criticals. Higher skill level = higher chance of hitting a crit.
Wieldable Weapons. This is choice MMO makers have to make. Whether or not allow characters with certain experiance wield certain weapons. This kills realism, yet significantly stops twinks from running rampage. This method could be used to constrain newbies to newbie weapons.

A MMOFPSRPG is possible, but a true MMOFPS would be no fun, as the game needs to have roleplaying elements.
18167


Ugh. My browser crashed and ate my reply :/.

That isn't what I'd call an FPS. A game where clicking more often - or the accuracy of clicks - determines the damage done (see quake 3) would be an FPS. Some thing simply done from a first person wouldn't be.

Look at Tribes 2. Was that an MMO? 64 players in the same area fighting certainly sounds MMO-class. I associate MMOs with a longer, continuous gameplay both on a macro and micro level.

Maybe I just define genres too strictly.

[Methulah]

The definition of MMO is debatable, but I wouldn't play an MMOR whose servers cannot support at least 1000 people.

Secondly, the "click auto attack and wait" system of MMORPG play kinda died with WoW and eq2. There will be few other MMOGs to include this style of combat. If we take a look at Turbine (the creators of D&D Online and Middle Earth Online), they are making MMOs with a dynimic combat system, with the more times you click, the more times you attack, and I am not sure, but I think that it has some sort of damage modelling.

However Baldurk, what you say about an MMOFPS not being a MMORPG with a first person view and a gun is true. There can be RPGs with first person views and guns (think Deus Ex). A true MMOFPS would probably get a bit boring (and laggy after a while).

When I think FPS, I think Quake 3, UT, Counterstrike and more on games like that. These are the classic FPS, but I am sure you would agree, it would be nice to see a genre defying title every now and then.

[ICantTell]

When I think MMOFPS(RPG) I think of classic FPS games with a leveling/skill system, in a world, not an arena. :huh:

[baldurk]

When I think FPS, I think Quake 3, UT, Counterstrike and more on games like that. These are the classic FPS, but I am sure you would agree, it would be nice to see a genre defying title every now and then.
18212


I'd love to see people try, but I'm saying that I don't think they'll manage :D.

Also, sorry for the double post I didn't see that my post actually got through.

[darqSHADOW]

For example, look at world of warcraft. I haven't played it, but I'd be surprised if the more times you click, the more damage you do. Or the closer to the enemy's head you click, the more damage you do. It's things like that that I think would qualify an MMO as an MMOFPS. And that's also why I think it's unfeasible.

I haven't played planetside so I can't really comment on it.

I'm confused by your replies, but Planetside is a true MMOFPS. It is exactly what you would expect, a bunch of people, attempting to resolve an objective, in First Person Shooter-style play. You run, duck, dodge, and sneak all while under fire from all sorts of other people in the area. There is artillery, tanks, aircraft, and battle commanders. I can't see how you wouldn't classify this as a MMOFPS.

DS

[Methulah]

I understand what you are saying, but planetside isn't a true FPS (MMO or otherwise) because it has a skills system, levelling and a roleplaying system similar to everquest.

However, i think that these games (Planetside, DarkFuture (if it ever happens)) should be called MMOFPSRPGs - just like Deus Ex is an FPSRPG, a blend of both genres.

It would be nice to see more games that are like this, and I am curently trying to assemble a development team for an FPSRPG myself. This is difficult to do while I am spending all my time making design documentation.

I think with FPSRPGs the deciding line is thin indeed, and reading back over my posts in this thread, I have contradicted myself once or twice (read: every post).

I think ()having actually thought this time) that a MMOFPS would be possible, but it would get repetitive if it didn't have a skills system (or equivalant) in which case it would be an MMOFPSRPG.

Like Planetside.

PS: I hear the best class in Planetside is a medic, as you get your own truck and ground to air rocket laucher, it sounds like a fun game.

[KapokWu]

I understand what you are saying, but planetside isn't a true FPS (MMO or otherwise) because it has a skills system, levelling and a roleplaying system similar to everquest.


Well, those are nuances how you arrange the alphabets... Another game
is Project Entropia, which feels like a FPS (it has hitboxes, and skils
bring more certainty). I would deifne the FPS -like element of a MMORPG
as almost complete freedom of choosing the target of the next shot, and
complete openness of being wounded by nearby entities. Add there obstacles
(you cannot shoot through hills, and other objects) and possibility to heal
or do other transactions in any order (without an action queue) and - well -
I would like to have that in all MMORGS :) .

The implementation should not be so difficult, e.g. the hitbox movement of
NPCs can be extrapolated on the client side. The FPS -element gives certain
sense of control, players like it and it adds depth to the teamplay.

[Methulah]

One off the things that is apparent with MMOFPSRPGs is that a lot of things would have to be calculated client side. I am thinking all physics, including collision detection, ragdoll and rigid body. Maybe if the netcode just tells the server where and what a player is then the rest can be done client side.

I am no expert on networking so I have no real idea.

[Ed Mack]

Client side lets cheating occur.. it's a hard balance

[Methulah]

Client side would just be for physics and the like, all charatcer information can be stored in database or files (the big debate) which reduces the chance of cheating.

And of course with FPS' there is the chance of cheating like aimbots and wallhacks to occur because it would be a much more action based game, but those sort of things can be offset by a login operation comparing the version on the client to a "pure" client version that is stored on the server, kinda like testing for a patch.

[IceBlade]

Methulah: you are wrong in your analysis of PlanetSide. I'm an old vet of the game, and I played it for a number of seasons.

Planetside is a true MMOFPS, but thats the essential problem. There is no role playing involved, there is no story. You grab a vehicle some guns and you head off to combat. There is no click festing (like EQ and WOW), you shoot and you miss if you have bad aim. Different Weapons do more damage etc.

Your aim doesn't get better when you level up, like a true FPS your skill is all about your ability. Someone could be lvl 24, and if they can't aim, they will still lose to someone who just started.

Planetside uses levels in a way that you now havemore access to different aromorments. Like now i have enough certification points to use a BFR (battleframr robot). But there isn't really "an experience system" because you don't have stats.

Like you stated, the essentail problem with having a true MMOFPS, is that its very boring. Imagine Unreal Tournament where once you've killed everyone you go on to the next base etc, and then the other side comes back and then you get more aid, etc. Its a never ending battle and it makes it boring. An FPS needs to have a story or the ablility to completely anihilate a group, in planetside no matter if one side (New Conglomerate) **this has actually happened** takes over the planet the other sides (Vanu Society and Terran Republic) can and will come back because there is no way to basically stop their spawn points, or the game would end.

P.S: best cert, engineer because you can fix any vehicle (vehicles aren't based on class), and then best weapon cert Anti Vehicluar, gives you access to the Rocket Launcher.

ICantTell: Huxley (in production by Webzen) is trying to create a MMOFPS that retains the fun of a Online FPS and a storymode of one. In it you can get better weapons as your level increases and you can go on instanced missions.

---------------------------

Personally i don't think an MMOFPS is in production that really captures what you would essentially want from an MMOFPS. You would need to drive an actual story (ala Halo 2) but at the same time bring in alot of team combat (like Unreal 2k3/4) and still have a reason for people to progress through the game (like leveling up), yet you can't have it bring up someone's skills (like high health, auto aim, more power) because now its infringing on the new person who is a better shot but gets killed in a split second because you can take SO much more damage.

It's the essential reason that we keep getting clones where damage is only created through the role of the dice.

I've developed a concept for an MMOFPS that takes care of all those problems, but no one else is really attempting it (we'll have to wait and see with Huxley).
--------------
KapokWu: sure it works, but its soooooooo not fun to aim properly and miss. It's the same as running up clicking on someone point blank swinging your sword, and missing. It just doesn't scream FPS to me

--------------
Methulah: essentially not giving the client much sounds good, but it doesn't work. Planetside does that, and scans everyfile from the game to make sure it hasn't been edited and there are still hackers every now and then who speed hack and find a way to get invinsiblity.

[Methulah]

IceBlade: Thanks for clearing that up about PlanetSide, I have a friends who said it and told me something about medics getting a truck with a ground to air missile launcher at high levels. Anyway, the game apprears to be a true MMOFPS and quite and interesting if not daring concept.

MMOFPS' have a future, but the design has to be ultra careful. There have to be stringant protocols to disallow hacking and a very well designed and balanced combat system to allow skill of the player AND the character to blend together to create a system that takes us away from a 30 year old PnP roleplaying game (as much as I love D&D).

I am very interested in your roleplaying system you have that takes all this into account, as it could have some serious potential. I am a designer for the main part, so I cannot develop it, but I would love to see some documentation of it.

Thanks.

[IceBlade]

I can't talk to much about it, because I'm currently working on implementing it into a game (I'm finishing designing it now, I'm going to start working on it in Torque in a month or two).

But essentially, you have to do several thing.

You need to establish a money system and a liscensing system. I felt that the best idea is to make weapons worth money so skill is more of a factor in bettle.

Yoou can purchase whatever weapon you'd like and use it effectively. But to gain access to some weapons you will need to move up in rank (only works if you are using a military esc, or sci-fi based FPS). This will give players something to strive for, but at the same time not over power them with additional health or anything along those lines.

For vehicles a liscensing system would be created. They would also be money based, but at the same time to be able to drive one effectively you will need to gain a liscense. Now someone without a liscence can drive one, but the steering would be terrible (purposeully) and they would usually careen out of control. Like in real life putting somsone in the pilot seat of an F16. This would all be based on the vehicle, as someone getting into a car would be able to drive it pretty well without a liscense, but getting into a helicopter would surrely crash. Liscensing would be free, but would essentially be a quick tutorial, giving the player the information they need to use each vehicle, and a quick run through to make sure they learned what they needed to know.

Now another problem is the cost of vehicles, weapons, armor, etc. In an online FPS (Unreal, Quake) they have no value other than respawn time. In an MMO you need to give them value but at the same time not raise it to a point where its overboard. Essentually you would have to create weapons that through (possibly factions) are free, maybe a lowleel assault rifle and a hand gun, and then make all other weapons cost based. It makes the player value their fe ala Everquest, but also relatively quickly be able to come back with enough firepower to have fun playing the game.

And most importantly missions and storyline. An MMOFPS needs to find a way to include them both but still incorporate alot of PvP. Essentually a system would have to be built that would allow for missions, but instead of having them instanced they would be triggerable. For instance, if a team breaks into some high security building, the faction that owns the building now puts up a mission that is "resecure the building." It would bring in PvP but keep it new and fresh.
But at the same time there need to be regularly skeduled missions that are Bot based so if there aren't people activating a mission you can still go and play.
Also the system would need to have full support for large scale battling. This would allow players to roam anywhere, and start large scale battles. Maybe a whole clan decides they aren't going to do a mission, instead they want to storm another clan's base and take everything they have. They would be able to do that, and the other clan would be able to fight them off, with people who are part of that clan's in game faction (in planetside that would be the clan (outfit) of the 666th Devil Dogs going to attack, but other members of there faction (the New Conglomerate) come to their aid.

You would gain a paycheck, instead of experience points that would allow you to purchase more things, a base, better weapons, maybe Bot Bodyguards. Experience would be awarded but it could be based on the role you take in battle, if you are healing everyone, you are awarded a medal towards being a Medic and thus gain access to purchasing better medical supplies.

Lastly, you can essentually have players just playing in a big world with not much of a storyline, deciding what they want to do and when they want to do it, but the developers would need to institute events to keep the game play fresh. ex. Matrix Online and the quest for Morpheus, where the devs played morpheus and in the game the agents won and they killed him. This would keep the game fresh, and would introduce new content that would keep players happy until the next event of expansion pack.

Sorry I can't think of more right now, because my brain is sorta fried, its late on the East Coast. Enjoy.

[Methulah]

I don't know nearly enough about procedural content, but it would be kind of interesting to slap a genetic algorithm on it. Can you serialize it into a string?
18518


I have no idea what that means :).
18526


I agree.

[IceBlade]

@_@, wrong topic? --------> Procedural Stuff

[pat_mathis]

Wow, reading through this topic one thing is made very clear; some people need to do some gaming history 101. Games that blend FPS twitch and RPG elements can be dated back to the days of Ultima Underworld (Id software, can eat poo and die). Other titles that where left out are System Shock, Jedi Knight, and Hexen.

That said, I think you guys are really losing the point of the topic. I personally would define a FPS as a game that has "twitch" gameplay from a first person view. Now, if it so happens to have RPG elements I wouldn't necisarly call it an RPG (If that were the case then Megaman, Castlevania, or Grand Torismo could be called RPG's; which they can't (unless of course your a complete git)).

So would that make Planetside a MMOFPS?

[Methulah]

Sorry about the cross post, got my tabs mixed up.

Of course we havn't "forgotten" games like System Shock and Jedi Knight, these games are not easily forgettable. The topic is about MMOFPS. The games discussed are discussed due to their possiblilities for MMOFPS implementation.

What we are discussing is not all games that have RPG and FPS blends, but what games can use those blends to work in MMO. I agree we have gotten off topic, but this topic is wide, and a few things need discussion before we can get to the true topic.

Thanks.

[IceBlade]

Wow, reading through this topic one thing is made very clear; some people need to do some gaming history 101. Games that blend FPS twitch and RPG elements can be dated back to the days of Ultima Underworld (Id software, can eat poo and die). Other titles that where left out are System Shock, Jedi Knight, and Hexen.

That said, I think you guys are really losing the point of the topic. I personally would define a FPS as a game that has "twitch" gameplay from a first person view. Now, if it so happens to have RPG elements I wouldn't necisarly call it an RPG (If that were the case then Megaman, Castlevania, or Grand Torismo could be called RPG's; which they can't (unless of course your a complete git)).

So would that make Planetside a MMOFPS?
18730


Sure they can be dated back. What we are saying si that its very hard to blend those things effectively into an MMO, because you now have to create real "value" for life, weapons, vehicles, etc. It changes the RP elements that Jedi Knight and others create.

And yes of course Planetside is an MMOFPS. Planetside is just problematic (leading to the reason that it is being closed down) because there is no "goal" if you will since there is no such thing as an extended victory.

Sorry about the cross post, got my tabs mixed up.

Of course we havn't "forgotten" games like System Shock and Jedi Knight, these games are not easily forgettable. The topic is about MMOFPS. The games discussed are discussed due to their possiblilities for MMOFPS implementation.

What we are discussing is not all games that have RPG and FPS blends, but what games can use those blends to work in MMO. I agree we have gotten off topic, but this topic is wide, and a few things need discussion before we can get to the true topic.

Thanks.
18742


Exactly, we are really just discussing the frame work that many FPS with RP elements use, and how they would have to be altered or restructured for a Persistant world.

[Overmind1984]

New abilities, which is standard MMORPG, is another good way to add personal achievements to a MMOFPS without reducing or increasing the effectiveness of ones own abilities. Invisibiltiy would be a perfect example of such an ability. Even abilities that do alter the players own abilities can be used as long as they make sense.

Deus Ex's character advancement system would be fairly easy to convert to a MMO environment. Getting an eye enchancement would increase accuracy and such.

I think its just a matter of time before someone tries to really take an MMOFPS as far as it can go.

[IceBlade]

Your're right. In that situation its really just about balance. Planetside attempted exactly what yo said, and they just made it that you could use each of them for only a limited amount of time, because they drained endurance.

Huxley may pull of what we are discussing, so this could be a moot point.

I haven't played dues ex, or the invisible war, how did they have there character advancement system?

[Methulah]

I didn't really get into the singleplayer, but still play multiplayer often.

When you make your character, you choose a set of Augmentations. These "Augs" allow you to do different things, such as see invisible people, be invisible, go faster, be invisible on radar and so on. These abilities drain BioEnergy when they are being used, some faster than others.

Another thing is the skills, when you get a kill (or lockpick etc.) you get skill points, whcih you can spend on skills. These skils can be heavey weapon use, light weapon use, computer use, lockpicking etc. Thse make you better at the skill in question.

It is a good system and works very well in multiplayer.

thanks.

[pat_mathis]

I think for a STABLE mmofps to work, much like a mmorpg, the first thing that should be done is to create something that functions as an open single player game. And that is something I don't think I've seen very ofter at all. An open ended FPS. I hear that's what S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is attempting. It sounds kinda neat, if it weren't for the lame sounding premis and story. But think how cool it would be to have a game with a story and interaction as deep as Morrowind with the focus on twitch game play. I could see that working great for co-op, but massive? I'm not too sure.

Banwidth would be killer. And, correct me if I'm wrong, it would need to limit player on a zone. That would require some creative twist to help the player swallow. I personally don't think the pay off would be worth while.

[Methulah]

Sorry t drag this thread off topic.. but... STALKER, a bad storyline?!?

STALKER looks to have the best storyline in an FPS since Deus Ex, with real explenations of the things that went wrong in the original Chenobyl reactor and what can go wrong if we continue to develop nuclear technology.

I think that you should look at what the story is, not the setting before you make a judgement.

Thanks

[pat_mathis]

I think that you should look at what the story is, not the setting before you make a judgement.

Fair enough, you caught me... I don't know much about the story at all. Just working on subs for a living and hating how much I know about them forces me to roll my eyes when ever I hear some one use Nuclear power as a catalyst. That and I think it's very disrespectful to the victoms. I would like seeing a World Trade Center game being made, myself.

I'll try to be more open minded about it in the future.

[Fritz]

Sorry to jump in here, but I've been quietly snooping for a while, and thought I'd throw in my two cents.

MMOFPSRPG is very doable. The compelling elements would have to be a good depth of story and an interface which allows both good RPG gameplay and FPS playability. If you look at Doom3, the elements are all there. All you really have to do is throw in multiple players and more depth to the story (why have a persistant world if your story is linear?).

FPS Multiplayer games are common. I think that the misconception is that in a MMO environment you'll have a massive number of players in the same area. The fact is, unless you're talking about a large gathering place you're likely to have 10 - 15 in viewable distance, of which not all will be engaged in combat (remember, MMO is a social experience--you end up talking a lot). Everything that is not within viewable distance need not be rendered. So even if there were 500,000 players online simultaneously (possible, if not probable) you'd still only have to deal with rendering the movements of about 50 max. And even if you went over that limit, there are again creative ways of dealing with the problem.

Just my little piece of input. Feel free to ridicule as you see fit :P

ttfn,

Fritz

[IceBlade]

I didn't really get into the singleplayer, but still play multiplayer often.

When you make your character, you choose a set of Augmentations. These "Augs" allow you to do different things, such as see invisible people, be invisible, go faster, be invisible on radar and so on. These abilities drain BioEnergy when they are being used, some faster than others.

Another thing is the skills, when you get a kill (or lockpick etc.) you get skill points, whcih you can spend on skills. These skils can be heavey weapon use, light weapon use, computer use, lockpicking etc. Thse make you better at the skill in question.

It is a good system and works very well in multiplayer.

thanks.
18881

See that is soemthing i would love to include in an MMOFPS, i personally would try to alter the skill points so they are given out specifically towards a field. Like the more locks you pick, the faster you can do it, no need to give you points to throw around. I like the idea of progressive development, simply put if I use a Sniper Rifle often and effectively, my character gets better at it (maybe reloads faster, smaller reticle).

I think that you should look at what the story is, not the setting before you make a judgement.

Fair enough, you caught me... I don't know much about the story at all. Just working on subs for a living and hating how much I know about them forces me to roll my eyes when ever I hear some one use Nuclear power as a catalyst. That and I think it's very disrespectful to the victoms. I would like seeing a World Trade Center game being made, myself.

I'll try to be more open minded about it in the future.
18960

I agree, i personally perfer Sci Fi, because the better writters don't come near nuclear power, because they understand the fallout doesn't give the kind of radiation to cause the kinds of "mutation" that games like to craft.

Sorry to jump in here, but I've been quietly snooping for a while, and thought I'd throw in my two cents.

MMOFPSRPG is very doable. The compelling elements would have to be a good depth of story and an interface which allows both good RPG gameplay and FPS playability. If you look at Doom3, the elements are all there. All you really have to do is throw in multiple players and more depth to the story (why have a persistant world if your story is linear?).

FPS Multiplayer games are common. I think that the misconception is that in a MMO environment you'll have a massive number of players in the same area. The fact is, unless you're talking about a large gathering place you're likely to have 10 - 15 in viewable distance, of which not all will be engaged in combat (remember, MMO is a social experience--you end up talking a lot). Everything that is not within viewable distance need not be rendered. So even if there were 500,000 players online simultaneously (possible, if not probable) you'd still only have to deal with rendering the movements of about 50 max. And even if you went over that limit, there are again creative ways of dealing with the problem.

Just my little piece of input. Feel free to ridicule as you see fit :P

ttfn,

Fritz
18969

I completely agree with you as far as story goes. I try to site MMOs like Matrix Online where the Storyline is always evolving, but there is always still a story to follow. It allows small groups, large clans, and single players to all enjoy themselves. Doom 3 is a little to confined for a story though, you would need a Storyline that brings you to multiple places with alot of different races/characters involved, something along the lines of the Halo universe.

Good in concept, but you should play an MMOFPS and see that it doesn't work out that well. generally Battles are massive (ie. PlanetSide) where they had to add caps to areas (zones if you perfer) because they were reaching 400+ people in a single area and the game was lagging at an incredibly painful rate.

Fights are generally massive in an MMO, the only reason they are small in multiplayer FPS is because there is generally a Cap, like Unreal has a max of 32players (the reason Tribes venegence died, and the mod SS:2845 moved to Torque). FPS that allow for larger numbers (and are actually fun) fill up fast(like Tribes of Tribes 2), so you would need to be able to handle a severly large amount of players in a single condenced area.

[Methulah]

Deus Ex does have a system that would be good in an MMO, but I agree with you, and am currently producing an offline game that has an inspired roleplaying system (near-future FPS) but as you mentioned with skills being given for what you do. Then we can have a game where the player can choose to use stealth or combat prowess to overcome foes and challanges.

Just about nuclear power and chernobyl in particular - did you know that the lack of human presence in the "dead zone" has made it one of the lushest places on earth with one of the largest densities of native animal populations. It really makes us wonder about the effect we have on our world.

Thanks

[Fritz]

Good in concept, but you should play an MMOFPS and see that it doesn't work out that well. generally Battles are massive (ie. PlanetSide) where they had to add caps to areas (zones if you perfer) because they were reaching 400+ people in a single area and the game was lagging at an incredibly painful rate.

Fights are generally massive in an MMO, the only reason they are small in multiplayer FPS is because there is generally a Cap, like Unreal has a max of 32players (the reason Tribes venegence died, and the mod SS:2845 moved to Torque). FPS that allow for larger numbers (and are actually fun) fill up fast(like Tribes of Tribes 2), so you would need to be able to handle a severly large amount of players in a single condenced area.
18972


a valid point, but let's be honest with ourselves about a FPSRPG. In a MMOFPS, the goal of the game is to kill your opponent. In a FPSRPG, the goal is to kill your opponent and to move through the game's story.

I agree that massive battles can get out of hand, but I'd like to try a thought experiment on the problem (which is how I tend to approach problems, and this is a fun one). Consider that we have a simple world, which exists on a flat plane (for simplicity's sake). Assume that we have collisions turned on for player models, and mobs roving around waxing anything that moves (other than other mobs). Now, dump 10,000 players into this massive plane.

The first problem is that the client needs to render 10,000 players, right? Wrong. Players are going to be running around all over, trying to shoot each other, trying to shoot mobs, and trying to avoid being shot. Collisions are turned on, so they can't be standing on top of each other. It needs to render anyone who is within sight distance/range. Now, maybe we've cut the number down to 500 that need to be rendered, but let's consider farther cutting down the rendering requirement. Let's consider that the client will keep track only of those who are actually on the screen. Now let's cut that number down even further by saying that we've created special models with low-intensity resolutions and animations for anyone who is outside of close range but closer than extreme range. At extreme range, the animations are even simpler and the skins even more reduced in resolution. After all, this is how the brain does it. The brain doesn't keep track of those things it can't sense. The brain doesn't 'render' things at a farther distance. Rather, it takes in what it can sense, and then allows the imagination to 'fill in' as it can.

I figure that using the same methodologies could cut those 500 players down to a manageable 200, and only have to faithfully render about 50. The rest are generic models which, if they get closer, will get rendered faithfully.

In this way, you could run a manageable MMOFPSRPG. When you add story, it takes away from the fighting. So there's fewer people fighting constantly (like in planetside, which I played and got bored with after about 4 hours).

That's it for my two cents. Feel free to ridicule at your liesure :)

ttfn,

Fritz

[pat_mathis]

Well, I agree that you would have to be clever about avoiding having too many people on one server. I think to advert from this problem you would have to start from concept and follow through. A great concept to follow would be Starship Troopers (The book, not that movie that I'd castrate some one for even mentioning). You could fight across the galaxy one planet at a time and limit it by only allowing so many people per drop ship and there you have it. Multiple drops one one planet while keeping each drop seperate. Good?

Then as far as the whole skill system, trash it. The game would really need to be piss and vinigar, from the hip, balls to the wall, piss blood and keep running action. I think the whole skill system greatly takes from that. Rather you should base it off rank and specialties. The higher the rank the greater your responsabilities. Specialties determine what people in your chain of command assign you to. You could even do missions that are specialized: snatch and grabs, sabatoge, assasinations, infiltrations... Think of it.

The MMO aspect would come further into play. Then gamers could get a taste of what it's like in the military. To suck up to get better gear. Nice. Then the upper chain could deal with the tactics that would be so broad it would mirror life.

If the game would be 1/3 the fun playing as I'm having thinking of it, it's platnum.

[Fritz]

Well, I agree that you would have to be clever about avoiding having too many people on one server. I think to advert from this problem you would have to start from concept and follow through. A great concept to follow would be Starship Troopers (The book, not that movie that I'd castrate some one for even mentioning). You could fight across the galaxy one planet at a time and limit it by only allowing so many people per drop ship and there you have it. Multiple drops one one planet while keeping each drop seperate. Good?

Then as far as the whole skill system, trash it. The game would really need to be piss and vinigar, from the hip, balls to the wall, piss blood and keep running action. I think the whole skill system greatly takes from that. Rather you should base it off rank and specialties. The higher the rank the greater your responsabilities. Specialties determine what people in your chain of command assign you to. You could even do missions that are specialized: snatch and grabs, sabatoge, assasinations, infiltrations... Think of it.

The MMO aspect would come further into play. Then gamers could get a taste of what it's like in the military. To suck up to get better gear. Nice. Then the upper chain could deal with the tactics that would be so broad it would mirror life.

If the game would be 1/3 the fun playing as I'm having thinking of it, it's platnum.
19022


I agree with the concept, although it sounds to me like it wouldn't be something I'd want to play for months at a time. I'd run into the same problem that I had with Planetside: there's no real plot. By plot I mean an evolving storyline where one or more of the main characters undergo some sort of transformation based on the unfolding of the story.

I seem to recall that "Huxley" is going to be very much what you are describing. Mankind is fighting against hordes of alien baddies, and you need to lead your squad through missions to fight them back. Interesting concept, but there just doesn't seem to be much in the way of 'staying power' to make the customer want to play for more than a month or two. And that just defeats the purpose of a persistant world.

of course, my opinions are just that: opinions, and only vaguely qualified ones at that. Feel free to differ.

ttfn,

Fritz

[Tufty]

Well, I agree that you would have to be clever about avoiding having too many people on one server. I think to advert from this problem you would have to start from concept and follow through. A great concept to follow would be Starship Troopers (The book, not that movie that I'd castrate some one for even mentioning). You could fight across the galaxy one planet at a time and limit it by only allowing so many people per drop ship and there you have it. Multiple drops one one planet while keeping each drop seperate. Good?

Then as far as the whole skill system, trash it. The game would really need to be piss and vinigar, from the hip, balls to the wall, piss blood and keep running action. I think the whole skill system greatly takes from that. Rather you should base it off rank and specialties. The higher the rank the greater your responsabilities. Specialties determine what people in your chain of command assign you to. You could even do missions that are specialized: snatch and grabs, sabatoge, assasinations, infiltrations... Think of it.

The MMO aspect would come further into play. Then gamers could get a taste of what it's like in the military. To suck up to get better gear. Nice. Then the upper chain could deal with the tactics that would be so broad it would mirror life.

If the game would be 1/3 the fun playing as I'm having thinking of it, it's platnum.
19022


I agree with the concept, although it sounds to me like it wouldn't be something I'd want to play for months at a time. I'd run into the same problem that I had with Planetside: there's no real plot. By plot I mean an evolving storyline where one or more of the main characters undergo some sort of transformation based on the unfolding of the story.

I seem to recall that "Huxley" is going to be very much what you are describing. Mankind is fighting against hordes of alien baddies, and you need to lead your squad through missions to fight them back. Interesting concept, but there just doesn't seem to be much in the way of 'staying power' to make the customer want to play for more than a month or two. And that just defeats the purpose of a persistant world.

of course, my opinions are just that: opinions, and only vaguely qualified ones at that. Feel free to differ.

ttfn,

Fritz
19025


You could have an over-arcing storyline that the players wouldn't be directly involved with, but which would influence them nevertheless. That might work, and would still give the players a feeling that the world is moving forwards. The higher level players could be closer to the events that shape the world perhaps.

[pat_mathis]

I agree with the concept, although it sounds to me like it wouldn't be something I'd want to play for months at a time.

Quake 3, Halo 2, Counterstrike... All of the multiplayer has no story, all of them I played from day one to date. I think the real trouble would be to keep things interesting even with random maps. As far as new things coming to play, there could be required ranks and specialties that unlock weaponry and vehicles.

Funny as this is I've got a second forum running one how to randomly generate a planet in detail and keep the file size to a minimal. It's in Graphics Theory & Implementation called making a planets. I caught the grammatical error one click to late.

[IceBlade]

All you would need to do, is effectively have random missions (not that they spring up, but that people don't know are) specialized that ok, it looks like another assassination mission, but once you've completed it, the whole story changes for everyone. maybe a whole side assaults another, or the ties between different groups shift. Allowing the players at any level to have a real affect on the game is very important to maintaing the RP level in an MMO.

I agree with the concept, although it sounds to me like it wouldn't be something I'd want to play for months at a time.

Quake 3, Halo 2, Counterstrike... All of the multiplayer has no story, all of them I played from day one to date. I think the real trouble would be to keep things interesting even with random maps. As far as new things coming to play, there could be required ranks and specialties that unlock weaponry and vehicles.

Funny as this is I've got a second forum running one how to randomly generate a planet in detail and keep the file size to a minimal. It's in Graphics Theory & Implementation called making a planets. I caught the grammatical error one click to late.
19031


true, but remeber, you are actually "winning" at the end of each lvl, after a certain amout of kills, or flag caps, etc. In an MMOFPS, its not like that, you just keep respawning and going back into the battle. So there is no winner, which is what keeps multiplayer FPS fun. Imagine Halo 2's multiplayer if there was no tension about who's going to score the last kill tied at 24 24, or fun factor when you are whipping the other team, because there is no end (hence to drama) and there are no beatings(infinite returns with new people logging in and joining in the mass fray).

[Fritz]

All you would need to do, is effectively have random missions (not that they spring up, but that people don't know are) specialized that ok, it looks like another assassination mission, but once you've completed it, the whole story changes for everyone. maybe a whole side assaults another, or the ties between different groups shift. Allowing the players at any level to have a real affect on the game is very important to maintaing the RP level in an MMO.

I agree with the concept, although it sounds to me like it wouldn't be something I'd want to play for months at a time.

Quake 3, Halo 2, Counterstrike... All of the multiplayer has no story, all of them I played from day one to date. I think the real trouble would be to keep things interesting even with random maps. As far as new things coming to play, there could be required ranks and specialties that unlock weaponry and vehicles.

Funny as this is I've got a second forum running one how to randomly generate a planet in detail and keep the file size to a minimal. It's in Graphics Theory & Implementation called making a planets. I caught the grammatical error one click to late.
19031


true, but remeber, you are actually "winning" at the end of each lvl, after a certain amout of kills, or flag caps, etc. In an MMOFPS, its not like that, you just keep respawning and going back into the battle. So there is no winner, which is what keeps multiplayer FPS fun. Imagine Halo 2's multiplayer if there was no tension about who's going to score the last kill tied at 24 24, or fun factor when you are whipping the other team, because there is no end (hence to drama) and there are no beatings(infinite returns with new people logging in and joining in the mass fray).
19032


This sounds exactly like what's being done with "Huxley". As different sides win battles, their faction has more control over resources necessary to survive. However, this is little different than Planetside in concept, and Planetside is dying a long, slow death IMHO. Well, we'll see what the next two years will have to offer :)

ttfn,

Fritz

[IceBlade]

Planetside IS dieing, SONY said that they are creating a new MMOFPS that uses "modern combat" based on what they have learned from making mistakes with Planetside. The developers have stated that Planetside is in a relative Maintenance mode.

You are right, Huxley is attempting it, but if you can't kill of a side by taking all of the resources then again there is no "real" goal.

[pat_mathis]

true, but remeber, you are actually "winning" at the end of each lvl, after a certain amout of kills, or flag caps, etc. In an MMOFPS, its not like that, you just keep respawning and going back into the battle.

BTW, I think you nailed that one on the head. It would be hard to do anything that would be little more then a tournament with clans if it had direct "wins".

[Methulah]

But "wins" could add up and then be used for reputation points (for example) which allow you to join bigger leagues of tournaments and win bigger and better cash prizes, aswell as getting people (powerful) people to give you quests.

Perhaps a player could need a certain level of reputation (gained by clan or personal "wins") to own a planet or equivalent.

Just an idea.

[IceBlade]

Methulah: but remember, there is no end to a lvl, when you have PvP in an MMOFPS, so there can't be a "win". It's just an endless battle.

[Methulah]

thats what I am saying, ti would be possible to implament a world where there are mini-rournaments, think perhaps "Quake Online" with the Arena being a place for clans to compete GW style. Anyway, that is not important.

[IceBlade]

Do you think people would pay an online fee for what Quake gives out for free though?

[Methulah]

I was only invisiging it as an aspect of the game, sort of like the PvP wars that Guild Wars offer, except less of a major asepect.

[Thursday]

screw it all, let there be a final outcome where one team/race/clan/side/alliance can beat out all the others and become supreme rulers or whatever. then have a mass restart, keeps the game alive, makes it possible to end the game...

i dunno tho, im a radical, i play games like WoW, get my char as a level 60 Undead Priest, and then after getting my 1st few parts of my tier one set, i decide to quit and start over or just play CS:S.

but i would really love to see this Huxley game turn out.