Positive and Negative Values. The meat of all stories.

[Gar_aka_thedude]

Well.. Instead of replying to my last post I decided to make a new one instead.

We all know the basics of a story: title, concept, theme, the three act paradigm, climaxes etc..

What's very unheard of and what makes a good story is this: Story Values. The positve and negative charges that flip, twist, and change through-out a story based on events that change them. Each event must first start with a value: positive or negative, and must end with an opposing value.

If you've ever watched a really good thriller.. you would see what i'm talking about. (hmm a good example).. how bout.. "Hostage". That movie is littered with changing charges when things twist and take turns for better or worse.. keeps audiences at the edge of their seats.

Final Fantasy VII is not fully littered with them but when their values changes.. it reveals nothing but raw power.

Planescape: Torment is littered with changing values: twists and turns.. and there was plenty of them to keep players playing.. to the end. I personally was at the edge of my seat to find out "what happens".

The Positive and Negative charges of the story's value is the cooked steaked from the chef's stove. Master this and you are one step closer to being a really good writer.

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Positive/Negative Charges Example: Lord of the Rings: Return of the King

Frodo just reached Mor'dor and sees ten thousand orcs between him and mount doom (negative). Gandalf can no longer see Frodo and could no longer help him (negative). Aragorn comes up with a scheme to help Frodo by assaulting the black gates (positive). Samwise notices the effects of Aragorn's plans as the orcs are drawn away from Mount Doom (Positive).

The troops of the Aragorn's army are frightened (negative). Aragorn recites a speech to fill his troops with courage (positive). Frodo loses his strength to continue on the final steps of their journey (negative) Samwise carries Frodo further up mount doom (positive). Sauron, what seemingly tries to trance Aragorn (the returned king) from attacking (negative). Aragorn overcomes this trance and charges courageously towards the orcs (positive).

Samwise and Frodo reach the doors where the ring is supposed to be casted in (positive). Gollum, thought to be dead, intercepts them (negative).

During the fight at the black gates, power dragons charge at the outnumbered army (negative). Gandalf calls for help from the great eagles (positive).

During the fight, Frodo runs his last steps inside mount doom (positive). The ring's will finally overpowers Frodo and he uses it for selfish needs (negative).

Sauron feels the ring and turns his dragons to charge after Frodo (negative).
Gollum, still obsessed with the ring knocks out Samwise and fights with Frodo over the ring (positive/negative). Aragorn is at the edge of defeat as a troll towers over him pinning him to the ground (negative).

Gollum bites off Frodo's finger and final grasps the ring he so longed for since its evasion from hi (positive/negative). Frodo gets up, wrestles with Gollum and falls off the edge with him (negative). Gollum holding the ring plummets into the lava of mount doom destroying himself and the ring(double positive).

Frodo, guilt-filled for giving into the ring, wants to fall with it (negative), Samwise refuses to give in for him (positive).

With the ring destroyed, Sauron loses all his remaining power and is destroyed (positive). The orcs retreat from their fallen super power and/or is caught in the ravines created from shockwaves from Sauron's destruction (positive).

Mount Doom erupts where Gandalf and the others know Frodo is in (negative). Samwise and Frodo escape the pour lava and reach outside (positive) but they become trapped on the mountain (negative). At that moment, knowing impending doom they accept their lives' end (negative)

Gandalf riding on a huge eagle rescues the unconscious hobbits (positive).

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Non-linear stories can work the same way as each multiple paths will have their own set of positive and negative values within it.

Hope this helps you guys when writing your own game stories. :D

Written By: The Dude

[juhnu]

the Game Design-forum would be more appropriate place for this..

[bladder]

Hope this helps you guys when writing your own game stories.

That was a great read. You should add this to the wiki (http://www.devmaster.net/wiki) when you get the time.

Though, would'nt almost every story have these values you speak of? It'd just depend on how powerful they are. Even bad stories have these constant flips. It's just that the flips are very weak as compared to other stories - which brings me to a question I have for you:

Final Fantasy VII is not fully littered with them but when their values changes.. it reveals nothing but raw power.

Could you give a little more details on this? I haven't played Planetscape: Torment - I don't really play games on the PC, I'm more of a console person. How are the flips in FFVII so powerful? How would you define a powerful flip?

BTW: Have you played Xenogears or Xenosaga - if so, what's your opinion on those stories?

[Methulah]

It is possible to use this theory to make a very powerful non-lenear story in the style of Deus Ex. Where each time player interaction comes into it, different positive or negative charges can come in to effect. I like this.

[Gar_aka_thedude]

Whoa.. forgot to reply to this post. Sorry bout that.

To Bladder: Yep.. all stories have them. Just not many writers have the creative boundries to exercise these nodes.

As for the FF7 value charges being powerful... well all of these positive and negative values switch and flip but they also stack in terms of magnitude. A good writer designs these charges to catalpult the level of conflict to a higher level. The ending of Final Fantasy 7 is a good example of this.

Cloud and the party defeat Sephiroth's abomination (positive) which gives the planet an opportunity to release 'Holy' (positive). The group retires to the airship until Cloud is somehow pulled to a epic one-on-one match with Sephiroth (negative). Cloud defeats Sephiroth (positive). (Note: These are the smaller value charges)

As Cloud returns, the ground below collapses (negative) and the airship comes crashing down (negative). No one's hurt (positive). Then, the planet thrusts out 'Holy' out of the crater (positive) which the airship is casted out from nearly killing the heroes (negative). The heroes make it out okay (positive). (By now the conflict's magnitude is rising.. its now 'Holy' vs. 'Meteor')

At Midgar, 'Meteor' is laying havoc to the city destroying everything (Negative) (level of conflict rising). 'Holy' rushes from out of no where and prevents 'Meteor' from doing damage (Positive). It didn't work and 'Meteor' rips through holy like butter (Negative) (level of conflict rises even greater)

Red XIII proclaims that since 'Holy' is having an opposite effect, there's nothing left to stop 'Meteor' from destroying the world (double negative). Then, their final hope comes to play and the Planet's Lifestream gathers together to empower 'Holy' to destroy 'Meteor' (double positive)

That whole sequence took like 10-20 minutes to do and there's only about 15 value changes. High tense thrillers tend to have more twists per minute to keep the audience guessing what's going to happen.. but since the writer was in full control of what he was doing, instead of filling the ending with all kinds of value changes, he instead empowered the existing ones and dramatized their importance.. making one value feel like two.. thus empowering its aesthetic emotions and magnitude of conflict to a higher level... and it worked beautifully.

[Veritas]

What's very unheard of and what makes a good story is this: Story Values. The positve and negative charges that flip, twist, and change through-out a story based on events that change them. Each event must first start with a value: positive or negative, and must end with an opposing value.
You appear to be redefining the term "conflict."

What your theory is claiming is that the simple act of having conflicts that resolve themselves in a way such that their end is different (on an ambiguous scale of positive/negative) from the beginning leads to a good story.

As noted, not all stories with such a pattern are good stories. It is also true that a good story does not require such a pattern of conflicts. Must a tragedy have many "positive" values to counteract the tragic ones? Must a romance have many "negative" values to counteract the romantic ones? How can a theory make such a general qualitative judgement about a storyline by simply judging its smaller parts?

Your theory is a verbose way of saying that "changes make for a good story," which is not necessarily true.

[Gar_aka_thedude]

Well.. first.. It isn't my theory. It's Robert McKee's theory that has been illustrated in his book "STORY" and he's a major screenwriting guru highly regarded in hollywood along side Syd Field.

I do agree with you on some parts that there are more elements to a good story than changing values and their end result.. but if you make a story where there are no changes and nothing happens especially in and after conflict.. you'll make something very boring.

All stories have conflicts.. all conflicts have opposing forces.. sometimes one.. other times multiple. It's the end result which makes the story good or bad when these obstacles are overcome, in one form or another, that reflects the meaning of the story. I'm not saying all stories must have a good ending to make it good.

This is just one element that makes a good story. I haven't included character.. characterization.. character arcs (which play huge roles in stories) themes, idealogies, opposing idealogies, dialogue and subtext, etc.

Incase I didn't get your exact meaning, you should throw in some examples of what you mean.

[Veritas]

... but if you make a story where there are no changes and nothing happens especially in and after conflict.. you'll make something very boring.
Are many of our comedies bad stories?

[Jufa]

comedies have these changes too.
they just aren't that visible.

[Wernaeh]

Are many of our comedies bad stories?


I guess most comedies don't even want to be stories at all ^^

[Gar_aka_thedude]

Comedies are dramas in disguise. Very few comedies are good stories. There's usually noticeable or subtle conflicts weither extra or interpersonal. A guy doing normal daily stuff is a subtle conflict of trying to get by the day.

Could the guy get fired? Could he get a promotion? What happens if one of those two happens? Does he realize his job is going no where? Or does he just want to make it through the day as little as hassle as possible? In one form or another they are conflicts. You're right on one aspect. You don't always need a change of environment or element to tell a story.

The movie "American Psycho" was a character study of one serial killer whom I believe.. was trying to break this cycle of some kind or trying to find some answer he's been looking for but didn't. Even with the immense amount of killings he did, he hardly flinched the reaction of the world. In the end, he found nothing and ended up back where he started. The killer himself didnt change but changed happened all around him.

But if you want to tell a good story.. something has to happen.. and that something is a change that benefits and/or threatens the main character(s).

[Veritas]

It's a verbose way of saying that a story should have meaningful conflicts.

He's getting caught up (or trying to impress people) by defining the opposing sides of a conflict as positive or negative.

Note to anyone writing a script or game story/plot: Make sure the story has positive/negative "story values". If that sounds confusing, "just add conflict."

[Gar_aka_thedude]

Conflicts don't have to be meaningful :P. Those are your our words not mine. Impress? Caught up? Not really.. I just tend to overexplain things so its not misunderstood (happens alot to me). Infact.. nothing I said here.. is a must.

I think your misinterpretting the usage of these values. Its to take one aspect of what happens and see the benefits and consequences of what that aspect brings. You buy a cat and it gives you comfort.. but it can also wreck your couch. You buy a dog and it gives you joy.. but it can also crap everywhere. That's what the usage of these values are.. to help you find the positives and negatives when something happens.

[Polar Sleuth]

Another horribly verbose post on stories in games:

Screen writing has an advantage over writing for games - it has been around long enough to form "rules." These rules are general guidelines that one breaks to the detriment of the movie. Over the last twenty years or so, several people have come forth and worked at defining the rules for everyone. There are plenty of variations depending upon which author you pick up, but they all try to define the progression of the story from start to finish. Positive and Negative Values, pacing, role changes, conflict positioning, story segments, et al. Unfortunately, those rules don't apply well to games as stated.

Pacing: While Stephen King can build suspense by taking half a page to describe the turning of a door knob, games don't have that luxury -- a 30 second cut scene is "too long." I remember a game review in which the game was blasted because the story and cut scenes interfered with the combat. Comic book soliloquies are obviously not accepted in games.

Positive and Negative Values: After the adequate Final Fantasy example, here is a more common one: Ratchet fires enough ammo into the Boss to knock the Boss's health meter down a third (positive), the Boss unleashes a new type of attack and Ratchet must jump clear of the area (double negative), once the attack is over Ratchet goes back to firing at the Boss.... In prose, this cyclic nature of conflict is implemented in small ways initially: the car breaks down in the middle of nowhere. From there tension is built in small steps. Rarely is there "crushing" conflict presented: all of the zombies flood into the research complex, the marine must clear all the demons from the level, etc. Yet that is what happens in games, and tension is built through the use of "improved" monsters around every corner.

Role Changes: Few games have tried to work with this in any way. The written concept is that a character can wear a series of "masks" and thus can play different roles throughout the story. A friend can be a "mentor" and offer help to the main character and later can wear the mask of a "threshold guardian" and block the character's path. Tension can be built through the conflict between the hero's goals and the facets of personality surrounding him. I have yet to come across a games with a NPC worthy of this treatment.

Conflict Positioning: One school of thought is that the hero should enter the "Innermost Cave" about 0.5 to 0.6667 the way through the story - think Luke Skywalker entering Cloud City to face Darth Vader for the first time in the trilogy. How many games have a climactic battle in the middle of the game with the major villain? How many have something "new" after the hero flees in order to get better weapons? How many players would call "foul!"

Story Segments: One of the "rules" for movies is to start the story as close to the action as possible and still show the "Ordinary World." For those of you not familiar with Joseph Campbell's work, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, the Ordinary World is where the hero normally lives: a quiet suburban house before the vampire moves in next door, a normal high school before the younger sister encourages the love-struck boy to set her older sister up on a date, etc. When this idea was presented on Gamasutra.com, a debate come about whether the player's life counted as the "Ordinary World" thus raising the question: do games need such treatment? The Final Fantasy series says yes, arcade games say no. Then comes defining the other segments in terms viable for games. I have yet to see a "Refusing the Call" done -- where our reluctant hero turns his back on the offered adventure: Luke Skywalker has to help his uncle on the moisture farm. Most games ignore "Crossing the Threshold" altogether -- where the expected dangers to the hero are enumerated.

And that isn't all of the story treatments out there. Nor is it even a surface scratch at the five treatments listed. But to implement any of these treatment types requires looking at games and the battles within them very differently. Perhaps even the expectation of the player would need to change -- would a player accept defeat and the need to escape in order to propel the story forward? Could we do a heroic tragedy ala Joan of Arc or El Cid? There are so many stories out there that could make excellent games. The question is, how do we get from where games are now to the point where we can do real interactive stories that are still games?

[Veritas]

I am a devout follower of the late Joseph Campbell :)

Unfortunately, many people are using the Hero's Journey as a simple formula and trying to inject it into games and, in the process, losing much of its mythological/symbolic power.

Now the question is how can we leverage the power of myth with the power of Chris Crawford's "interactive storytelling" model?

[Polar Sleuth]

I would love to see it. Having said that, I have to admit that I think Chris Crawford got some things wrong in his Erazmatazz system as far as games go -- I think it is a good system for NPCs.

There is a big problem for translating these works for games. The key unit is neither segment nor verb. It resides somewhere in between. R. Talsorian Games has put forth another increment: the "beat." But that doesn't seem quiet right either.

I'm back off to the drawingboard again.

[Esoteric]

This is a great topic. I hadn't ever really been exposed to Crawford's work, but Cambell is a thinker I admire. I went and checked out what Storytronics had to say, pity the website isn't finished. Interesting indeed.

Stories in games are still stories, and writing is a time honored tradition- even before screen-writing, I believe.

Good writing and story construction can truly add a huge amount to games, imo. In many respects, I consider games a new media for storytelling, and so theories such as Cambell's are a strong influence on my thinking about what a game should be or have.
Game designers are a new breed of storytellers, this I truly believe. As such, we should feel free to take advantage of the richness of global mythology and story and adapt our own designs into these 'fundamental' myth structures, as well as seeking new ways to create and tell our stories.

The new storytellers, in game design, must therefore strive to master the media- the technology will never outshine the uses it is put to. Simply put- stunning graphics does not a blockbuster build. So, too, the new storytellers must adapt to the new methods- the very format of our storytelling, evolving from campfire tales to books, from books to film and computers, each new level of media has expanded the storyteller's ability to achieve the most singular and important goal- suspension of disbelief.
In our virtual worlds we have the power to create an entire mythology system that is filled with story-potentials. Game designers, as storytellers, are now empowered as World and, truly, Universe designers- and to have a depth and immersion in a game we must design a rich mythology or 'content-base' specific to your genre template, of course.
Thus, in an ideal rpg for instance, we would have the task of creating a world of potentials; history, legends, plots, and physics, magic, weather and current conditions- all set up to create a 'plot-field' charged with particles of 'plot-potential'. (is it ok to quantize plot particles?) Not just a map and some items and a thread-bare npc staff wrapped into the latest and most powerful graphics pipeline and texture shaders.-that's just the css of a computer game.
My position for games now is that I would prefer lower quality technology if it came with increased content of engaging storylines, quality construction and re-playability.
To breathe life into our games, beyond the mechanics, should we not look to story and history? I think so. But writing should not be taken lightly- one of my favortite resources for writing advice is a little book called 'Revising Fiction' by David Madden, which isn't about writing at all- it's about editing and refining your writing, and delves into some of what has already been written in this thread, in fact. There is a huge amount of advice and technical theories on good writing, but so little of it seems to have trickled over into games I have played...
However, the 'meat' of all stories is a much harder critter to nail down and get a hunk to bar-b-q than just a balance of forces and Hero formula. Good writing is a process of writing and re-writing, and then re-writing some more. The 'meat of all stories' is the human condition, and the author's perception of it.

[dave_]

Sorry to be a kill-joy but I can't stand all this pointless propostions/postulating.
After all this site is about developing games. With the help of devmaster forums even those with minimal programming skill can find the tools to develop games.
Therefore put your money were you mouth is. Find a tool that you can use and develop the game with these things. Like a programmer thats working on a new technique you dont have to develop an entire game but a proof on concept would be useful. You cant design a game entirely on paper.

I know the above sounds harsh but I'm trying to play devils advocate. I'd just love to see someone implement some ideas, but no one is going to do it for you, you'll have to do it yourself.

[Esoteric]

If you can't stand 'pointless propositions', why have the internet? Reading the thread and forum title kinda screamed 'creative discussion and pointless propositions' to me. And how do you judge the value of a proposition?

How are you going to develop good games w/o good design? Design happens first in the imagination, as I seem to find, and it goes through a whole series of pointless propositions to arrive at a plausible plan. This is also referred to as the scientific method. Design is theory, and most theory is often found from considering 'pointless' concepts like what it would be like to ride a beam of light.

You can not only design a game entirely on paper, but Gygax clearly proved you can play it there, too. Paper is perhaps not as easy as making some text files for some typists, but any project can benefit from some simple notework design. I even psuedo-code on paper to get a feel for a piece of code sometimes, especially when looking at game logic overviews. Trying to write a large program w/o a design or plan notes never seems to work for me.

Yes, this is a developer site, but this forum clearly steps into game design. If it said '3d engines' I wouldn't discuss story, but it says design, and that includes creative writing.
And this thread seems to be about developing stories and creative mythology in games, a part of good game development discussions, imo.

So if you want to play the devil's advocate, an arguement such as "Blizzard and the Diablo franchise have clearly proven that most storyline can be successfully removed from a rpg-style game...etc" would be more on topic.

Don't try to be harsh in the midst of creative thinkanings.

aloha

[DracheHexe]

Pardon the sarcasm and irritation I am about to offer:

No one can convince me that I have to follow a certain set of rules or my story/game/whatever will suck.

No one can convince me that a story I think is bad is good just because it follows a certain set of rules.

No one can convince me that a story I think is good is bad just because it doesn't follow a certain set of rules.

No one can convince me that the story in FFVII was good.

That being said, you could psychoanalyze what makes a good story to death and it is irrelavant because how "good" a story is is subjective. The value of a story is weighed by what the reader gets from the story (or how many weeks it's on the best seller list) rules or no rules.

[Polar Sleuth]

Agreed. While the best stories have traits in common, one cannot blindly plug in those traits and expect there to be a great story at the end. Just as a lone 3D engine does not make a great FPS game. More work than that is required.

A lot of people are looking for the ideal story/game structure as if it is the next grail. The problem is, crafting a story throughout a game without weakening the gameplay is hard. There exists a line above which the story can run rampant, but below which the gameplay must king. A minimalist story has cut-scenes between major locations, and in theory the cut-scenes explain why the locations are connected. While cut-scenes can be added within a location, having too many will break the gameplay. Therefore the ideal story/game structure would have between location cut-scenes, a specific and limited number in location cut-scenes, and some other mechanism to handle in location story elements. One interesting concept is "Cues" ala The Witch's Yarn by Mousechief; their problem: lots of story, very little game. This is the same problem that Laura Mixon ran into with Shattertown Sky.

While lots of people have put forth what makes a good story, and other people have put forth what makes a good game, no one has put forth how to combine the two.